February 25, 2011
38. kevin kensick says...
Or,from another prespective......
If anyone is a Christian..."The truth" lives in them....it's impossible to be a Christian, if THE TRUTH Jesus does not live in you.
However.....
It's really sad that ALL Christian's have "the truth" living in them, but they aren't set free....in their mind... because they don't know the truth about "the truth" Jesus Christ and the entirety of what HE accomplished for them via the New Covenant.
To be free in God's eyes, from HIS perspective and not know it as a Christian....in YOUR mind....is a really sad thing.
Been there...done that and NEVER going back!!!
February 25, 2011
37. kevin kensick says...
All humans take in information (from pastors,teachers,books, TV and bible interpetation etc) and from that information, we CHOSE our own truth.
If the truth you've chosen to believe has not set you free.....then the truth is not yet in you.
December 24, 2009
36. Andrew Farley says...
I recommend reading the book itself for clarity concerning what it says. Here’s a bit of what The Naked Gospel actually says about the Law, repentance, and confession. —–The Law—– “The law hasn’t disappeared just because we have the New. It is still at work today as a tool to convict the unbelieving world. As the words of Jesus indicate, the law will continue to be an ever-present force until heaven and earth disappear.” (Chapter 8, The Naked Gospel) —–Repentance—– “There’s a godly sorrow or regret over sins that leads a person to desire change (2 Corinthians 7:10). This regret occurs because believers are designed for good works, not sins. When we sin, we’re not living out our destiny. When we sin, we won’t be content with our choice. We’re meant for something greater. We’re meant to display the life of Jesus Christ. Nothing less.” (Chapter 23, The Naked Gospel) —–Confession—– “Let’s clarify an important point. The meaning of confess is “to say the same as” or “to agree.” Believers should agree with God on all counts-not just about sins but about everything. Although we don’t confess our sins in order to receive new portions of forgiveness and cleansing, we should still agree with God concerning the folly of sin. We’re his children, and it is only his ways that fulfill. We’re designed from the ground up to agree with him, depend on him, and live from him.” (Chapter 22, The Naked Gospel) —–Upright Living—– “The reality is that the amount of time we spend sinning won’t increase if we agree with God about his Son’s once-for-all sacrifice. In fact, the opposite will occur. We’ll begin to realize that our slate is clean before God. We’ll see that Jesus Christ accomplished this in order to remain in us every moment of every day, no matter what. With awareness of his unconditional presence comes the power to say no to sin.” (Chapter 30, The Naked Gospel)
October 15, 2009
35. Ron Forseth says...
Jim,
I wanted to say thanks for taking the time to think that through and to share your thoughts. I'd be interested in having a further discussion with you if you have interest. My cell number is 760-685-7298. Or you can email me at ron[at]sermoncentral.com. I'd value the time and your insights. Thanks.
October 12, 2009
34. Jim Kilson says...
As a pastor I try to find some redeeming information in anything that I take the time to read, even when I find myself disagreeing with the majority of the presented information. This is where I found myself while reading this article. I have taken the last week to consider and think about the information that Andrew presents us with. Andrew is right that some people do become disillusioned with the faith, and there are indeed many reasons that such an occurrence happens. I think he hits the nail on the head when he says “my belief system was poisoned with religiosity.” Christianity is a relationship not a religion, and until we understand that fact, and get those we are called to lead to understand it as well, we’ll continue to have people who become disillusioned with the faith. Up to that point in the article I could see where Andrew was coming from, however it was at that point that he veered off the road and down into the ditch. He states that he learned some “radical” “scriptural” truths. But on examining these “truths” we see that thought they may appear to be “liberating” they are far from being “scriptural.” As I progressed through the pages of the article, I began to feel as if Andrew had stolen a page out of Rob Bell’s playbook. Though the questions he posed from the “Reveal” study are ones that every pastor should consider, his response to the study was missing one key factor… people will only get out of a relationship what they want to get out of it. Faith is a two-way road, requiring input and action on the part of the individual. Andrew is right in the fact that the key point about the services our assemblies take part in should be about substance not structure. Though scripture commands that our worship is to be done in an orderly fashion, never should our methodology be placed above the message we’ve been called to present. Though he claims to present a “message over methodology” viewpoint, one has to ask which message he is presenting… the gospel as is found in scripture or the pseudo-gospel that is being propagated by emergent/emerging church. He asserts that the answer to each and every question on his quiz is “false,” which on even a rudimentary examination proves to not be the case at all. Instead of peeling away the “layers of religious misconception,” he is actually adding to them. Is my congregation ready for the “Naked Gospel,” may it never be! I know that there are those who have commented about how disappointed they are in SC for posting this article. I on the other hand am glad that they did… some may ask why I take such a position. The answer is quite simple… The article allows me to (1) remind myself why I believe what I believe (2) it shows the message and methodology that is being employed by those in the emerging/emergent church movement. It’s my prayer that Andrew does some serious re-evaluation about what he is presenting….
This article should be one that makes us all think…..
October 1, 2009
33. Euan Glen says...
For a start one reason you were not fulfilled as a Christian was you sepnt far too much time at it - 5 hours a day bible reading would make anyone loose direction and hope. I know many advocate such devotion to bible reading and church activities but I have always believed that to be spiritually fulfilled you have to have balance. Jesus liked parties, meals etc he liked the things we can enjoy. Yes he had quiet times yes he knew his scriptures and we can too but really 5 hours a day- get a life and get hope. I did the quiz and got four wrong made me think so thanks for that. Not sure how the folk in my church would answer the questions- must try it sometime
September 30, 2009
32. Jim Freeman says...
In many of the more caustic comments, it seems we are bent on grace plus knowledge. I find it fascinating that among my Calvinist brothers that even though it is by grace alone and there is nothing good in man, a "saving knowledge" is preached. Knowledge of scripture and deep theology seems to be a requirement of "making our election sure". I accept that I am just a guy. I'm not particularly bright or well educated. I can't match wits with anyone on "election" or "free-will", but I have faith that the good work that God has begun in me He will complete. Even if I don't understand it. I believe it is important that we do not bite and devour each other in our zeal to protect right theology. You can be wrong and still in the family of faith. Only in gnostic theology is right thinking required. Here we remain a people of faith. Not sola scriptura. Not solo gracia. Sola fides.
September 29, 2009
31. Dean Shriver says...
At first brush, some of Andrew Farley's statements bother me. However, the knee-jerk response of labeling him a heretic is more than misguided. It's unbiblical. Matthew 18 gives clear guidelines for confronting those we believe have erred or have wronged us. They include privately communicating with an individual prior to making public accusations of sin. This enables us to be certain that we have all the facts. In this situation, we're not able to sit down and talk with Andrew face-to-face. But he has graciously provided free access to his book so we can fully interact with his ideas and clearly understand his position--something impossible to do on the basis of an article this brief. I suspect, most of my concerns will evaporate once I read the book. If not, I can at least respond to him knowledgeably. In the mean time, it might be wise to tone down the rhetoric.
September 29, 2009
30. Andrew Farley says...
Great discussion! Below are some excerpts from The Naked Gospel. Struggle: “The same apostle who informs us that our old self is dead also provides solid answers about why we still struggle with sin…” (p. 108) Confession: “Believers should agree with God on all counts – not just about sins but about everything.” (p. 154) Growth: “Behavior passages foretell our destiny. It makes sense to seek them out and crave them, since they quench our thirst for conformity to Jesus Christ.” (p. 208) Check out the free eBook during October to learn more about what The Naked Gospel says.
September 29, 2009
29. Ron Forseth says...
Peter,
There is much I can respond to in what you have said but for now will hold off. However, SermonCentral is not promoting the book for profit that I am aware of. Be careful of rash accusations. They, too, call for accountability. May the discussion continue in a spirit of humility, in an earnestness for the truth and in a pursuit of knowing Christ fully. Thanks.
September 29, 2009
28. David Mende says...
No Pastor/Christian worker/theologian with sound theological training would agree with Andrew Farley on many points. He seems to be advocating the "prosperity gospel."
September 29, 2009
27. Peter Loughman says...
Sermon Central is promoting the book because Sermon Central is in partnership with the publisher - that's how business works. That aside, Andrew is a growing number of writers who espouse ignorance as a virtue. We can debate and parse all day each nuance of his quiz, but the fact is we all know his main concept: Theology doesn't really matter - let's all just love Jesus, Jesus is all we need. Baloney. Our congregations are full of people who in their theological ignorance love Jesus but live like pagans and as a result their lives are empty and powerless. Theology does matter and ignorance is is not a virtue, but even worse, willful ignorance promoted by church leaders is a terrible sin - which by the way needs to be repented of and by the way, we will have to account for before God.
September 29, 2009
26. Jack Heino says...
Read this book as soon as it came out - really identified with the questions, was encouraged and still seeking full answers to those questions!
September 29, 2009
25. Truman Kimbrough says...
While I share the frustration to determine the cause of struggling Christianity and struggling Christians, I believe Andrew has seriously erred in attacking the foundational truths of the faith in his quest for answers. His "Naked Gospel" will not produce the answers; it will only muddy the water and leave the immature "unclothed." To believe that he has discovered spiritual truths overlooked for centuries by great theologians is, at best, presumptuous and at worst, arrogant and only leads to confusion.
September 28, 2009
24. Christian Cheong says...
Preaching true grace is always difficult. The questions can confuse, depending on where your emphasis is. A truer understanding needs more explanation than just a true or false verdict.
(1) Christians should ask God to forgive and cleanse them when they sin - we confess because we know we've done wrong, not so much to gain forgiveness or acceptance again.
(2) Christians struggle with sin because of their old self within - the "old self" is crucified and dead, but the struggle remains and is real because we're growing in sanctification and living in a world of temptations.
(3) We should wait on God even before making everyday decisions - this can be true sometimes. We don't wait on God on every issue, but there are times for this (look at the Psalms).
(4) When we sin against God, we're out of fellowship until we repent - our position or relationship with Christ will not be jeopardised because of sin, but in reality the sense of "fellowship" or closeness with God is affected by it.
(5) OT law is written on Christians' hearts so we want to obey it - Jesus sums up the Law as love for God and for peole, so in a sense, that "Law of Love" is in our heart, which compels us to live righteously.
(6) The Bible tells us that Christians can obtain many rewards in heaven - there are rewards, not as "many" or as tangible as some may have thought.
(7) Christians will give an account for their sins at the great white throne - not for sin, but an account of our works for His Kingdom.
(8) Christians should tithe at least 10 percent of their income to the church - we give out of love, beyond the tithe. Always freewill. But if by OT law it's a tithe, by love it ought to be more.
(9) God gets angry with us when we repeatedly sin against him - He disciplines those whom He loves. If someone 'repeatedly' sin, a reprimand is warranted. This is what "getting angry" means.
(10) God looks at us as though we're righteous, even though we're really not - positionally we are righteous in God's eyes and nothing can change that. Experientially we are moving towards that perfection.
September 28, 2009
23. Nayomini Weerasooriya says...
Hi - I am from that part of the world where Christians are persecuted daily - Sri Lanka but like me, many are finding Christ in the most unbelieveable way. I stumbled upon Sermon Central accidently when searching for material for a sermon. I am not a pastor my 'day job' is a Journalist/Editor/CEO of a publishing company but my 'calling' is to serve the Lord through his Word. My husband who is a lawyer and I work often with the church under persecution (we have had over 200 attacks on churches since 2003 here in Sri Lanka). I am a Buddhist convert to Christianity by conviction. I find Andrew's thoughts bordering on blending human perspectives into divine. I agree with Jim Freeman on the mystery of grace - you understand it yet there's so much more that's beyond you. I have visited the US and found your churches and your pastors to be excellent in terms of resources and facilities. Here, we work often among people who have nothing and are poor in spirit and material wealth and yet when they come to Christ, they do not need heavy theology or a strong dose of debatable concepts - they find His grace refreshing and are happy to sit at His feet and let Him do the work in them. Especially when any minute, the Government can slam the Anti-Conversion Bill on us making us all criminals - or the church can be attacked any day and the pastor thrown in jail. When you live on edge and know Christ, what works is simple yet profound faith that can make you want to stay in Him even when you know the mob is outside your church ready to attack. The powerful grace of Jesus that has set us free, is indeed sufficient for all our needs.
September 28, 2009
22. Jim Freeman says...
Great opportunity to really uncover why I believe what I believe. It seems like a classic example of extremes leading to extremes. Yes there is much condemnation in church, but there is much "easy-believism" as well. The answer is always in balance not in the opposite extreme. Free grace is not greater than faith. Faith does not follow knowledge and knowledge does not lead to faith. We can not separate each part and declare it the whole. Some of this is difficult to understand - it is called a mystery throughout the New Testament. We can let it be mysterious and yet compelling at the same time. I differ with Andrew greatly on several points, and yet I whole-heatedly agree at others. Let the debate contine, but let us never forget that we serve one master and each man must answer to him and him alone.
September 28, 2009
21. Thomas Clark says...
Who told you you were naked Andrew?
September 28, 2009
20. Mark Gring says...
The basis for A. Farley's heresy is his denial of the "already but not yet" understanding of Christ's redemptive work. Yes, we are declared righteous in Christ and "dead to the 'old man'" but this is not yet attained and will not be attained in a completed way until heaven. Until then we are still in the process of sanctification that continues to be worked out--Paul's classic statements in Romans come to mind about "that which I wish to do, I do not do...." As such, Farley's assumptions seem to fall in line with some classic heretical perspectives that have been around for ages. I am very sorry to see that SermonCentral.com has placed this material on its website. I believe this to be a serious theological error.
September 28, 2009
19. Ron Forseth says...
10. God looks at us as though we're righteous, even though we're really not. Response as to how this is false:
God looks at us as righteous because we are righteous, because he made us righteous. Christ has become for me righteousness and holiness from God. (1 Corinthians 1:30) I have not accomplished my own righteousness, but I have been declared righteous. Again, on this point there is room for debate, and we welcome points of contention, but I see no heresy. Again, for us to consider ourselves sinners by nature when we are not will lead to more sin—the very thing all of us wish to avoid.
Let the discussion continue. But even as it does, may our identity in Christ not be robbed from us even as we cling to the Naked Gospel—the good news of the grace of God and the indwelling Christ. I commend you to an in-depth study of Romans Chapters 6 through 8, among many others that address our identity in Christ. I also suggest downloading Andrew’s book.
September 28, 2009
18. Ron Forseth says...
9. God gets angry with us when we repeatedly sin against him. Response as to how this is false:
God most certainly is angry about sin. This is proven in the Cross. Even for believers whom God has forgiven, sin is an extremely serious matter. Frankly, not speaking for SermonCentral but for myself, this is the one point of Andrew’s that is most foggy for me. That said, whether I sin and need to repent or am not sinning, I am to rest in the finished work of the Cross. And since God unleashed his wrath on Jesus for every one of my sins, there is something to the idea that his wrath has run its course because Jesus bore it for me. I absolutely do not take sin lightly and do not believe Andrew does either. I do believe it is spiritually destructive to live my Christian life ducking for fear of the anger of God. When I mess up, I can confess and rest in his acceptance of me. Otherwise, God is almost constantly mad at me. (How often during a day do I have a proud thought, an impatient response, a faithless complaint, an impure impulse? I spend my days repenting, not defending sin. But I rejoice in the unshakeable love of God for me. His acceptance of me is a most prized possession.)
September 28, 2009
17. Ron Forseth says...
8. Christians should tithe at least 10 percent of their income to the church. Response as to how this is false:
SermonCentral has published before on the issue of tithing in an article by Dean Shriver, who does argue that tithing is appropriate for the Christian in today’s church. There is no shortage of Bible-believing Christians who insist that the tithe is not the standard for Christians—they instead refer to a standard of generous, cheerful, hilarious, and willing giving. It is true that, outside of Old Testament references in Hebrews, there is no mention of the tithe since the founding of the Church at Pentecost. Room for debate, yes. Clear heresy? By no means.
September 28, 2009
16. Ron Forseth says...
7. Christians will give an account for their sins at the great white throne. Response as to how this is false:
Porter Barrington’s Christian Life New Testament offers a wonderful treatment of the various judgments in Scripture, including a commonly held believe that the Great White Throne is for unbelievers, not believers. I recommend obtaining a copy on Amazon. (Incidentally, Andrew’s assertion in #6 would not be supported by Barrington.)
September 28, 2009
15. Ron Forseth says...
6. The Bible tells us that Christians can obtain many rewards in heaven. Response as to how this is false:
I refer you to Andrew’s treatment of this subject in Chapter 25 on page 165ff. of his book, freely given to SermonCentral readers. Thanks, Andrew. (See the bottom of the article for the link and the code for a free copy.)
September 28, 2009
14. Ron Forseth says...
5. Old Testament law is written on Christians' hearts so we want to obey it. Response as to how this is false:
I don’t see in Scripture where the code of Old Testament law is written on our hearts. In my heart, I am not trying to avoid pork in obedience to the Law—along with hundreds of other laws I’m not trying to avoid, including how much work I do on Saturday. We do have the law of love written on our hearts, praise God. And in that is the sum of the Old Testament law.
September 28, 2009
13. Ron Forseth says...
4. When we sin against God, we're out of fellowship until we repent. Response as to how this is false:
Something bad obviously happens when we sin. And we do sin. But Jesus does not leave us when we sin and return again when we repent. The seed with which we are born again is imperishable (1 Peter 1:23). He has promised to never leave us. Our communion with God can be injured, but he remains in us and is faithful even when we are unfaithful (2 Timothy 2:13). The Church will certainly have the Calvinist/Arminian debate forever. And let it go on, because it is productive in the fight against sin and in the glorification of the name of God. We are called to repent, and our spiritual life is injured when we sin and don’t repent. But God does not leave us, even when we sin.
September 28, 2009
12. Ron Forseth says...
3. We should wait on God even before making everyday decisions. Response as to how this is false:
What we may do from faith, we may do without hesitation. Christ is in us, we are united with him, and we may take an active role in our lives, not one of passive waiting. We do not need to ask Jesus what pair of shoes to wear, what food to eat, what route to take to work. He guides us moment by moment, and it is problematic for the Christian to be waiting in passivity to make common decisions.
September 28, 2009
11. Ron Forseth says...
2. Christians struggle with sin because of their old self within. Response as to how this is false:
The teaching of Scripture is clear: The old self of the Christian is dead, crucified in Christ (Romans 6:2; Galatians 2:20). The residual stench of indwelling sin remains, and Christians can still sin. But it is not the old self that sins. It cannot, because it is dead. And the new self is a new creation, i.e. holy. There is much to be legitimately debated here, but it is important that Christians not consider themselves as sinners by nature any longer. The old has passed away; the new has come. (2 Corinthians 5:17).
September 28, 2009
10. Ron Forseth says...
1. Christians should ask God to forgive and cleanse them when they sin. Response as to how this is false:
Christians are to confess their sins, no doubt about it, but this is not the same as requesting forgiveness. In no example from the book of Acts is there an example I can find of someone asking for forgiveness—there’s only commands to confess our own sins and to forgive others. “Forgive one another as you have been forgiven.” We do not need to ask for what we already have, but we do need to confess when we sin. I find this to be a liberating teaching, actually. It does not leave us enslaved waiting for another to forgive us after we’ve heartily confessed.
September 28, 2009
9. Ron Forseth says...
A comment from SermonCentral on running this article:
We seek to engage in spirited discussion, and we also are serious about avoiding heresy. Yes, there are things to be challenged here. That’s fine, and we welcome it. But at least from one angle, there is a valid point to be made with each question asked by Andrew Farley. I will say this: Categorical declarations of heresy is sketchy business, for the one declaring the heresy comes under scrutiny, as well. Might there be anything you believe or teach that could be false? Let us be rigorous in our pursuit of sound doctrine. And let’s be careful in the fervency of our judgments.
See further comments below for each question (given in multiple posts due to size and formatting issues).
Blessings,
Ron Forseth
General Editor
SermonCentral.com
Galatians 2:20
September 28, 2009
8. Tony Russo says...
The most important discovery I have ever made in my life is that I was created to be the expression of the invisible God in a vsible way. Everything about the way we live reveals whether or not I am expressing who He is. When I am preparing a sermon or washing my vehicle, His Spirit within me shows Himself.
As Paul told the Corinthians, "We are not our own." We never were or ever will be independent from His life; that is, if we want to reign with Christ forever.
This is the struggle of the person in Romans 7:14 on. We have made the serious error as Christians thinking that so much of what we do whether evil or good is of our doing. But these actions simply record in the books in heaven which spirit is directing and energizing our behavior. As Romans 6:16 points out, we choose which spirit (good or evil) will influence who and what we are. The spirit we choose shows itself through our humanity.
We have no independent spirit of our own. The only nature we were given at creation is God's Spirit. It's His nature that we are to posses. Not even for a moment should we think that each time we are doing the right thing that it is human nature doing the right things. It is the nature of God who does the right things through us.
This is what makes the gospel really "Good News!" Through Jesus we gain back everything lost through sin. I understood that for many years. But it never became the experience I now posses in Christ. We have thought of ourselves as being the ones who run our lives as believers.
Two more things. Jesus told the disciples in the Upper Room that it was the Father that did the works through Him. Jesus lives as a full man and relied entirely upon His Father. After the resurrection, Jesus told the disciples, "As the Father sent Me, now I send you." The glory of the Chritian life is that Jesus is saying that the way the Father worked through Him is the way He wants to work through us! I want this more than anything else even if the only thing He wants to show Himself through me is when I am washing my car!
September 28, 2009
7. Dr. Michael Shanlian says...
Mr. Farley's thesis is an interesting one. I believe that our "discontent" in the post modern church is a result of selfishness and pride. Many Christians serve for recognition, promotion and personal gradifcation. Jesus reminded us that following him involved picking up our cross, not promoting ourselves!
September 28, 2009
6. Cliff Ely says...
I have to agree with the previous comments. I have never commented on any article on Sermon Central but as Steve said I am disappointed that Sermon Central would endorse and publish this.
September 28, 2009
5. Matthew Johnson says...
I too am disappointed with this article. 1 Jn.1:8-9 undermines the very first of Andrew's 10 Concepts. Writing to Christians the Apostle John writes; "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."(NIV)I trust that Andrew is trying to proclaim the finished work of Christ, but lets not go beyond the bounds of Scripture. The ten quotes are sounding alarm bells.
September 28, 2009
4. Robert Welsh says...
According to the New Testament the answer to all ten questions is not false! With all do respect, it is the authors interpretation of the scriptures that seems to be somewhat "convoluted."
September 28, 2009
3. Richard Turner says...
One positive thing about this article is that believers might feel challenged to pull out their Bibles and study to show themselves approved and that the answers to these statements are not all false.
September 28, 2009
2. steve bloem says...
I was disappointed with this article and I was disappointed that Sermon Central endorsed and published it.
Every answer is not false.
His theology is truncated and lacks depth.
Steve Bloem
September 28, 2009
1. Daniel McGhee says...
OK, so what we have here is a younger, slicker version of Bob George's (radio show "People to People") heretical "Classic Christianity." That's all this is folks...
