Doug Conley

commented on Feb 12, 2013

Great stuff.

Lauri Smalls

commented on Feb 12, 2013

Amen and amen!

Bill Williams

commented on Feb 12, 2013

As someone who sits in the pews each week, I thought this article was quite helpful overall, and I appreciated the sentiment. There were a couple of statements made, however, that I'd like to push back on. In the first point, I agree with the general idea: Don't expect the pastor to do everything, and certainly don't expect the pastor to do things we should be doing ourselves. However, prayer is not "biblically pastoral in nature." Prayer is the privilege of ALL Christians! Teaching, on the other hand, IS "biblically pastoral in nature" according to Ephesians 4. Yet in the context of Ephesians 4, the teaching that Paul has in mind does not appear to be the same thing as preparing a sermon or two every week. Rather, the context implies a type of teaching that is more practical, instructive, more of a training of the saints for ministry. For example, rather than just teaching people what the Bible says, a pastor teaches people how to understand what the Bible says for themselves. The second comment that the author made that I'd like to push back on is that a baby is less important than the word of God. First of all, I think it's silly to put babies and the Bible in competition with each other for interest. Yes, I agree there is a time and place to focus on each, if that is what the author was trying to say. But anyone who believes that a baby is less interesting than the Bible either has no children, or has sadly forgotten what it was like when they were babies! Looking back, the years that I spent with my two now-teenage sons when they were babies were one of the times when I most grew closer to God as I meditated on the sheer miracle of life he had created for me! Also, I'm a teacher, and I recognize that just because a student isn't looking at me, doesn't mean they're not paying attention. Not everyone has either the physical or the temperamental capacity to sit still and look in one direction for an extended period of time, nor should we expect them to. The key is to mix it up, get them to use their various senses, make it interactive. I think if more sermons were like that, pastors would have to worry less about distractions and would be able to keep more people engaged.

Robert Macmillan

commented on Feb 12, 2013

Bill Although I am not in disagreement with your point of view I think the context of it was off a tad. The article was about 10 things that can be done by the congregation to improve their pastor's sermon. This indicates to me that it is about the pastor's preparation(ie. time spent), his or her lack of distraction during delivery, and the individuals ability to hear the message being delivered. When you say, "However, prayer is not biblically pastoral in nature" , the author himself states this in his very first statement that praying and teaching are 'not biblically pastoral in nature'. The gift of teaching is not limited or exclusive to shepherds. In 2 Timothy 1:11 Paul states that he was appointed a preacher, and apostle and teacher, each distinct yet complimentary. In Hebrews 5:12 Paul rebukes them for not being mature enough to teach others not for not being elders or pastors!

Jeff Glenn

commented on Feb 12, 2013

Good points! It's just too bad most of our parishoners will never read this article. But hey, what about posting it on facebook!

Charles Wallis

commented on Feb 12, 2013

I really appreciate this article. I have been on both sides of the pulpit and all of these points need careful consideration. All of us should care deeply for the preaching of God's Word and do our best to excel whether preaching or listening.

Charles Wallis

commented on Feb 12, 2013

I really appreciate this article. I have been on both sides of the pulpit and all of these points need careful consideration. All of us should care deeply for the preaching of God's Word and do our best to excel whether preaching or listening.

Charles Wallis

commented on Feb 12, 2013

I really appreciate this article. I have been on both sides of the pulpit and all of these points need careful consideration. All of us should care deeply for the preaching of God's Word and do our best to excel whether preaching or listening.

Robert Macmillan

commented on Feb 12, 2013

Bill Although I am not in disagreement with your point of view I think the context of it was off a tad. The article was about 10 things that can be done by the congregation to improve their pastor's sermon. This indicates to me that it is about the pastor's preparation(ie. time spent), his or her lack of distraction during delivery, and the individuals ability to hear the message being delivered. When you say, "However, prayer is not biblically pastoral in nature" , the author himself states this in his very first statement that praying and teaching are 'not biblically pastoral in nature'. The gift of teaching is not limited or exclusive to shepherds. In 2 Timothy 1:11 Paul states that he was appointed a preacher, and apostle and teacher, each distinct yet complimentary. In Hebrews 5:12 Paul rebukes them for not being mature enough to teach others not for not being elders or pastors!

Fred Gurule

commented on Feb 12, 2013

As a pastor must prepare to preach a person should be prepared to listen. Pray before you come to church and ask God to help you hear what He wants to say to you.

Prescott Jay Erwin

commented on Feb 12, 2013

Bill Williams and Robert MacMillan: Perhaps this was a little confusing, but the author actually was referring to the two things from Acts 6 (prayer and ministry of the Word) that ARE primarily pastoral in nature. As the early church did by setting aside deacons, today's church should ensure that pastors are not distracted from those two key areas. That's not to say pastors are EXCLUSIVELY to pray, just that it's primary to the pastoral calling. Pastors who are distracted from prayer and the ministry of the Word by excessive church administration cannot be at their best for their flocks.

Charles Wallis

commented on Feb 12, 2013

I really appreciate this article. I have been on both sides of the pulpit and all of these points need careful consideration. All of us should care deeply for the preaching of God's Word and do our best to excel whether preaching or listening.

Charles Wallis

commented on Feb 12, 2013

Prescott Jay Erwin thank you for that helpful clarification of scripture. There is a time of prayer and study for pastors that needs to be guarded clearly stated in the example you mention.

Charles Wallis

commented on Feb 12, 2013

I once heard Lloyd Ogilvie say he considered one hour of preparation necessary for every sermon minute (pre-internet of course!) That would either cut down sermon length or increase study time or both.

Bill Williams

commented on Feb 12, 2013

@Robert, "the author himself states this in his very first statement that praying and teaching are 'not biblically pastoral in nature.'" Actually, the way the sentence was constructed, it appears that the author those two items are primarily what the author considers to be "biblically pastoral in nature." If I have misunderstood the author, I hope he clarifies. The authors don't normally interact on this forum, however. And I completely agree that the gift of teaching is not limited or exclusive to shepherds. The teaching ministry should be shared between pastors, elders, and others in the congregation who have been gifted. But what I mean is that Ephesians 4, the only text in the Bible that specifically references the office of pastor, links that office to teaching. Teaching and equipping the saints for ministry, not preparing and preaching a weekly sermon, is the primary responsibility of the pastor.

Joseph William Rhoads

commented on Feb 12, 2013

Bill Williams. I too had to re-read the opening paragraph. I do think the author is intending to say, that if your pastor is ministering in a way that is not biblically pastoral (and examples of biblically pastoral items would be praying and teaching).... I don't think he intended to say that praying and teaching are not biblically pastoral. I hope the author does read these comments, so that he may find some useful critique of his writing style. As a pastor who writes occasionally, I enjoy the feedback of people who read my work. I want to be clear has possible and I can write something a bit different so that it causes no confusions, then I welcome the critique. Additionally, the suggestions that he presents are spot on. I believe it's important for pastors to teach these things to their congregation so that they will know how to worship during the sermon. And that it is, listening to a sermon is worship. I'm glad that the author recognizes that. So many people do not.

Bill Williams

commented on Feb 12, 2013

@Prescott, yes, I am aware of the passage from Acts 6, and I am quite sure that that is what the author was referring to. But it is important to keep the context in mind. Acts 6 does not say anything whatsoever about pastoral ministry. The text says that that was the specific focus of "the Twelve." Now, of course I believe that pastors should not be distracted from prayer, but my point is that NO ONE should be distracted from prayer. Prayer is no more "primary" to the pastoral calling than it is to the Christian calling in general. Look, I think we all get the main idea, and my comments are mostly about semantics. But I just think it is important to be careful to word things as precisely as possible, if for no other reason than to avoid these kinds of conversations! Also, I agree completely that pastors should not be distracted by excessive church administration. However, I also believe pastors can become distracted by being too busy preparing one or two sermons each week, from what IS their primarily pastoral responsibility: equipping the saints for the work of ministry. At our church, our pastor does not preach every week. The preaching is shared by him, our elders, and a few other gifted lay members who have been trained. This frees up a lot of time for our pastor to work with us one-on-one and in small groups to equip us for ministry. The results from this arrangement have been significant!

Prescott Jay Erwin

commented on Feb 12, 2013

Bill Williams: You are, of course, correct about pastor-teachers sharing with apostles, prophets, and evangelists the Eph. 4 task of equipping the saints. I think that Richard Baxter demonstrated in his book "The Reformed Pastor," the ministry of the Word for the equipping of the saints goes far beyond the preaching hour in the worship service. The ministry of the Word does not = the preaching hour, but does certainly include it. Thanks, brother.

Bill Williams

commented on Feb 12, 2013

Prescott, yes, that is a fair summary of what I believe. I appreciate you taking the time to listen. And again, to clarify, I found the article helpful overall, and agreed with the suggestions offered by the author. The purpose of my comments was not to criticize, but to offer some correctives and/or balancing statements to some things the author wrote that I thought could use the correction and balance. Have a great day!

Jonathan Campbell

commented on Feb 12, 2013

Excellent article

Anonymous Contributor

commented on Feb 13, 2013

Praying for you Jared and pastors everywhere, especially @Bill W's pastor. :^]