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John Piper: Why Women Don't Read or Pray in the Pulpit

John Piper more from this author »

Desiring God

Date Published: 8/4/2012
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John Piper shares why Bethlehem Baptist Church does not allow women to read Scripture, pray, or preach from the pulpit.

Editor's Note: How does John Piper's view on women and leadership compare to yours? Do you agree, disagree, or find yourself somewhere in between?


John Piper

John Piper is the Pastor for Preaching at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, Minnesota. He grew up in Greenville, South Carolina, and studied at Wheaton College, where he first sensed God's call to enter the ministry. He went on to earn degrees from Fuller Theological Seminary and the University of Munich. For six years he taught Biblical Studies at Bethel College in St. Paul, Minnesota, and in 1980 accepted the call to serve as pastor at Bethlehem. John is the author of more than 30 books, and more than 25 years of his preaching and teaching is available free at desiringGod.org. John and his wife, Noel, have four sons, one daughter, and an increasing number of grandchildren. 

Pastor Sandy .
August 25, 2012
P.S. I am not sure in retrospect if I referenced the correct article date - Aug 16 - in my previous posting. It could have been an earlier article. The facts remain the same. [delete comment]
Pastor Sandy .
August 25, 2012
I realize this discussion is basically over, but I have put off joining in because of the "spiritual bullying" that is conducted by at least one individual. Denis, Fernando Villegas, unknown personally by either you or me, seems to be one of the gentler souls of all the folks commenting in this discussion. Yet you constantly malign him. You even deliberately insulted him in the N.T.Wright discussion (see Aug.16 posting) immediately following the death of his father. You knew his father had just died. You may very well know your scripture - I will give you that - but you are missing completely our Lord Jesus' message: Love. You have criticised me in the Aug 16 postings for the fact that I believe "Love Thy Neighbor" means "Love Thy Neighbor". I lead a group of Interfaith folks. We do not treat anyone like you do. No matter their color, their faith, their country of origin, no, indeed, their gender - and horror of horrors - their sexual orientation. We are all God's children in His sight. And one of the real needs for women in ministry you exhibit completely: we can be firm, but we are the kinder, gentler Pastor. And yes, I am a Pastor. I am one of those individuals you call inferior, not worthy. I am called by God. That is not something you can take away from me in all your rantings and ravings. You can spout scripture until you are blue in the face, but the fact remains, you are a bully. And for those of you who wonder why in the world I come to this discussion like this, please refer to Dennis' bullying tactics in the N.T.Wright Aug 16 article. And to Fernando: may God bless you in your ministry, and I trust God has been holding your hand as you mourn the loss of your father. Blessings to all - Pastor Sandy [delete comment]
Marticia Banks-booker
August 18, 2012
Dennis your comments in 121 regarding Adam First then Eve are contradictorary to Genesis 1, "God created them male and female".....Genesis 2 "...named them Adam". Although Timothy supports your view, it is clear in Genesis Eve was in the creation from the beginning and was not an "after thought"... PAUL said not God, "I suffer a woman not to Teach. which is particularly interesting when her clearly stated that when a woman prays or prophesies in ! Cor that she should have a "covering on her head." ... It is also interesting that MOST men view using the gift of teaching as "exercising Authority OVER" them. Paul also said that the preacher must be "sent" in Romans, but most men who are preahing today were never "sent" tney just "desired' to exercise authority and chose to "feel" a calling rather than wait for a genuine calling. Note in John 4:24, Jesus sent the woman and all the MEN "believed" because of HER testimony (many have been taught through testimonies). Men are in authority where they have been appointed by God not where they "take control" for example my husband is the "authority" in my home. He is not my authority on my job. My Pastor is authority in my church, but he is not my authority in my home. It is also interesting to note that this same scriptural Paul was also TAUGHT by a woman who was co-pastoring in theri home Priscilla and Aquila. Priscilla is mentioned first which is contrary to the rules of our society. This signifies that she was the primary teacher.. He didn't say Aquila and then Priscilla.--- Arguing in these blogs or evening continuing the argument from the pulpit is more of the "deviting and devouring one another" refered to by Paul to the Carnal Church at Corinth. God certainly doesn't get the glory from this sort of teaching. THerefore I totally agree with your poin [delete comment]
So I'm a "spiritual bully." I drove someone off this sight because he couldn't stand my "bullying." Wow! I wonder how in the world he stays in the pastorate, because it is a LOT harsher being a pastor than being "bullied" by me. [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 14, 2012
Also, I doubt many people are still following this conversation. If I was more sane, I'd have checked out long ago! But in case anyone is, I just want to say farewell to those of you who were respectful conversation partners. I was blessed and edified, even when we disagreed. I will miss you, and I wish I didn't have to leave. But I have to. I don't like the person I'm becoming on this site. And the bullying is not going to stop until one of us backs down. It might as well be me. [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 14, 2012
Dennis Cocks, you wrote, "Because I stand firm on what the Bible says about women in ministry, you somehow construe that to mean I believe you can't be saved if you believe women should have authority over men?" Fair enough. I stand corrected. It's not that you believe that a person can't be saved if you believe women can have authority over men. You just believe you don't have to be nice to them. It must be nice to be you. You can read my name on a screen, and treat me like I'm not real, like I don't have feelings. You judge me based not on who I am in Christ, but based on words that you read on a screen, words that you twist and distort to make them fit the caricature that long ago you decided I was. And because you don't agree with those words--and by extension, neither does God agree with those words, since you are an infallible interpreter of God's Word--then you feel no need to treat me like an actual human being. But you are wrong. You are so wrong. And when you can read inside a man's heart like Jesus can (another blasphemous comparison--you're on a roll, today!), then you can quote to me Matt 23 and Rev 2-3. By the way, Jesus also told us to love our enemies and bless those who curse us. But that's harder to do, so let's just stick to disrespecting people. So, I'm done. I will no longer submit to your spiritual bullying. It's time for me to move on. You win. I lose. I suspect, though, that you winning this argument means more to you than me losing it means to me. Like I said a couple of months ago, my father's death made me reflect on what my priorities should be. Moving on from here is something that was long overdue. Regardless, you won't have to worry about reading any more of my heretical posts. Sure, there are others on here who disagree with you and will challenge you. But I'm sure if you continue to bully them, you'll eventually wear them down, too; until the comments section of this website is a perfect reflection of pure doctrine, as determined by you. Of course, you'll still encounter false doctrine in the occasional article from time to time. But hey, life's not perfect; besides, you'll have the comments section on your side to straighten things out. The other downside is that by limiting God's voice to your own understanding of things--well, that will make for a very small voice, indeed. But at least, you'll be able to control it. Although I have to say, that may feel nice at first. But do you really think a voice smaller than you will be any source of comfort and strength when facing a situation that is bigger than you? I guess you'll have to find that out for yourself. Farewell, Dennis Cocks. I'm sorry for my sad excuses of interpretations. I'm sorry that my comments were so beneath your dignity, that they did not even warrant a response, or even just a little bit of respect. I wish you to best in this earthly life. And I hope we can get along better when we get to God's kingdom... [delete comment]
Fernando, If I tell someone that Jesus said "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and someone disagrees with what I said, is he disagreeing with me or with God? When Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6) and someone says "I don't believe that! All roads lead to heaven," who are they disagreeing with, me or God? Would you dare claim that I am being blasphemous because I proclaim what God clearly says! When God says "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" and someone disagrees with that, who are they disagreeing with, me or God? You accuse me of being "blasphemous," for declaring "Thus saith the Lord!" I think not! And how in the world does taking a stand on doctrine equate "justification by faith"? Because I stand firm on what the Bible says about women in ministry, you somehow construe that to mean I believe you can't be saved if you believe women should have authority over men? How did you reach that conclusion? If you want to believe that everyone's doctrine is just as valid as the next person's you go right ahead. And as far as being respectful, why don't you reread what Jesus thought about the doctrine of the Pharisees in Matt. 23:1-39. Yep, Jesus sure showed a lot of "respect" to someone who disagreed with Him, didn't He? Why don't you reread Rev. 2-3 and tell me how "respectful" Jesus was to the errors in doctrine and practice many of the churches were guilty of. How about Jude 3-19? Like I said, "According to God's order for the human race, "Adam was first formed, then Eve." This is a biblical fact. It is foolish to agrue with facts. The only way a person can get away from this fact is to deny the divine inspiration of Scripture!" If you can't see that, I pity you! [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 14, 2012
Dennis Cocks, very well. You like to play the rebuking game? Well, so do I!! 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13--"We ask you, brothers, to RESPECT those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work." YOU, SIR, HAVE NO RIGHT TO TREAT ME WITH DISRESPECT! You have a right to hold your beliefs. You have a right to argue on behalf of your beliefs. You have a right to disagree with my beliefs. And each one of these rights I have acknowledged on your behalf. BUT YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TREAT ME WITH DISRESPECT, AND I WILL NOT PUT UP WITH YOUR SPIRITUAL BULLYING ANYMORE!!!!!! You are in disobedience of Paul's clear instructions in 1 Thess 5:12-13, and I encourage you very strongly to repent. You claim that my disagreement with you is not with you, but with God. That is the most blasphemous statement I have heard you say. You are not the Holy Spirit. You are not infallible. You are not an inspired apostle. You claim to have such a high regard for Scripture; but in reality, you use Scripture to feed your own pride--and if you don't think that equating your own interpretations of Scripture with God is because of pride, then you are in a lot more serious problems than even I think! And if, in fact, I am disagreeing with God, then he alone will be my judge. NOT YOU, DENNIS COCKS!!!! He alone knows the intentions of my heart. NOT YOU!!!!! I am a human being, created in the image of God. I love the Lord my God with all of my heart, soul, mind and strength. I am by no means perfect, and I sincerely apologize to you for the times I have been disrespectful to you. Believe me, you will never know, but I am much harder on myself than I will ever be on you. But I do my best to be faithful to God and to his word, as I trust that you do, as well. Look at Spencer Leon Miller and myself. The two of us disagree on the issue of women in the pastoral ministry. And yet our exchanges have been completely respectful, and we've even acknowledged some common ground that we both hold. We respect each other because even though we may disagree on an important issue (which, contrary to your belief, I DO believe it is very important--just because I disagree with you on this issue doesn't mean I don't think it's important; and just because I don't think it is acceptable to act like a jerk, as long as "I'm right", doesn't mean I don't think it's important), at the end of the day, Spencer and I are still brothers in Christ, because of our faith in him. We are family, and so we treat each other with respect, as a family should. This is what the doctrine of justification by faith is all about. You may be correct on the issue of women in pastoral ministry. But you have COMPLETELY MISSED TO BOAT on the essential issue of justification by faith. You have replaced it with a false doctrine of justification by correct doctrine. And to make it worse, you've set up your own fallible, sin-polluted understanding of doctrine as the standard. That is a very dangerous position you have placed yourself in. I hope you realize that soon. [delete comment]
Fernando, why do I feel the need to be so disrespectful to those who disagree with me? Because they are not disagreeing with me, they are disagreeing with God! Something you and many others don't seem to understand. Again, GOD CANNOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF! Either those who hold that women cannot usurp authority over men are right or those who believe they can are right. There is no other way around it! You seem to think that this issue isn't all that important, but I strongly disagree with you. I believe it is VERY important! I don't believe God speaks just to hear Himself talk. I believe He means EXACTLY what He says (2 Tim. 3:16). Your attempt at interpreting 1 Tim. 2:12-3:7 shows how far some will go to try to make the Bible say something it doesn't say, which is SAD! Your attempt as you said yourself was nothing but speculation. In 1 Tim. 2:12 Paul's "I" refers to him as the inspired apostle writing under the direct revelation and inspiration of the Holy Spirit (2 Tim. 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21). According to "The Companion Bible" in 2:12, as in 2:7, the word "not" expresses "full and direct negation, independently and absolutely; not depending on any condition expressed or implied." Kenneth Wuest, in "The Pastoral Epitles In The Greek New Testament" writes, "The correct understanding of Paul's words, 'I suffer not a women to teach,' are dependent upon the tense of the Greek infinitive and gramatical rule pertaining to it." He concluded that Paul meant, "I do not permit a woman to be a teacher." W. E. Vine has pointed out that the infinitive to teach can be used absolutely or transitively; he also indicated that in 2:12 it is used absolutely and means "to give instruction." As I have said many times before, Paul was speaking in the context of teaching in the local church. He did not prohibit women from teaching other women (Titus 2:3-4) or from teaching children (1 Tim. 2:15; 5:10). Neither is he saying that Priscilla, who along with her husband, privately taught Apollos, was wrong (Acts 18:24-28). But Paul ABSOLUTELY reserved the teaching role in the church for men. According to God's order for the human race, "Adam was first formed, then Eve." This is a biblical fact. It is foolish to agrue with facts. The only way a person can get away from this fact is to deny the divine inspiration of Scripture! That is why I am so "disrespectful" to those who disagree with "me" on this issue. I stand by my statement that the reason the church today is in the shape it is in is because "preachers" are afraid to preach God's truth because it isn't "politically correct." Someone made a very good point in a previous discussion on this issue, (K B?). If a wife is to be in submission to her husband (Eph. 5:22-24) how can she have authority over him in the church? Verse 24 says the wife is to be in subjection "IN EVERY THING." Another contradiction for those who hold women can be pastors. [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 13, 2012
Dennis Cocks, I'm sure you've had a busy weekend; but when you get the chance, I really would like an answer to my question: Why do you feel the need to be disrespectful to those who disagree with you? [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 13, 2012
Spencer Leon Miller, yes, I, too suspected that we're essentially in agreement, especially because of that last statement you made. I guess I just wanted to clarify that position. As far as Jamel Salter's point, only he can confirm exactly what he was intending to communicate. But for me personally, I did not understand him to be making an attack against the Bible, or saying that the Bible was of pagan origins. Rather, what I think he was trying to say is that some of the modern things that we associate with church--such as the pulpit, the altar, etc--even though they may have Biblical roots, may have more pagan influence than Biblical influence. A case can be made for such a belief, for example, in Viola's book Pagan Christianity. I wouldn't go as far as Viola does in his book; but I do think there is benefit in a critical examination of some of our assumptions and understandings of these elements that we associate with church. It's important that what we understand by a term such as "altar" in the context of the NT church is based on Scripture. [delete comment]
For all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ. Galatians 3:27-28. Context!!! Get your context right! [delete comment]
Fernando, there is no disagreement between you and I, you just stated it differently and apparently much better than I. I am cognizant of the fact that the church building is just that a building; you and I make up the true church. However, Mr. Salter stated that the "pulpit" and the "altar" were "paganistic inventions" the pulpit is mentioned at least once in the Bible (Neh. 8: 4), and the altar is mentioned numerous times. Mr. Salter seems to say that the Bible is pagan, but it is my belief that the Bible was Divinely inspired and not just a recycled collection of old legends. And furthermore, If the writers of the Bible were inspired by Paganism, even slightly, that would mean they were not wholly inspired by God. This is why I responded to Mr. Salter's remarks, because if there be anyone wanting to give their life to Lord they would not be misled while doing so. I want them to know that the Word of God is accurate and true. [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 12, 2012
Spencer Leon Miller, I don't think this direction would be too much of a detour from the original video! My understanding from studying the New Testament is that the concept of sacred space which is prominent in the OT, illustrated in passages like the one about Moses that you referred to, is replaced in the NT by the concept of sacred people. Rather than the presence of God being localized in a specific place, the presence of God now dwells through the Holy Spirit among his people, often called "saints" in the NT. That is why Paul refers to us as the temple of the living God, for example. The way I see it, the pulpit in our church is not inherently a sacred place. It is only sacred insofar as Holy Spirit-filled saints (not limited to pastors, by the way!) preach the Word of God from that pulpit. That is why I agree with your last statement: "Anywhere we speak to and meet with God is sacred." Because it is not the space itself that is sacred, it is the presence of God and his people meeting in that space that makes it sacred. [delete comment]
Jamal Salter, I couldn't disagree with you more and not to take this discussion into a different direction but the pulpit is a very sacred place because it is where God communicates with His people. Although I know it is not the only place; and altar is where God meets us. Mind you it doesn't have to be a literal altar within the church building. But you are wrong when you say they are not sacred because the are both rooted in Scripture. God told Moses to take off his sandles because he was on holy ground. Anywhere we speak to and meet with God is sacred. [delete comment]
Ther is nothing sacred about a pulprit, the alter, or the church building itself. They are all paganistic inventions of Constantine's time. Let put the man made dogmas aside to get to the real work. There is a world out there that needs Jesus. [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 10, 2012
Dennis Cocks, first, I have never claimed that Paul's instructions for 1 Tim 2:12-3:7 were only for his day. In fact I reject that argument. I have never questioned the relevance of Paul's instructions in that passage for the 21st century. What I have questioned was a certain interpretation of those instructions. Second, you keep asking, "Someone tell me what these verses mean if they don't mean what they CLEARLY say!" But when I give you an alternate interpretation, based on the larger Biblical context, you refer to it as a "sad excuse of an interpretation" that "didn't even warrant a response." Well, I'll tell you what. I resisted giving you my interpretation for precisely the reason you have proven to be true: I thought you were so convinced in your own mind of how right you were that you wouldn't take what anyone else had to say seriously. But since you kept asking, I decided to take the time to do so, knowing that most likely I was wasting my time. So, the least you could do is respond, and if you disagree with my interpretation, at least tell me where you think I am wrong. Otherwise, quit asking, "Someone tell me what these verses mean." Because we all know you're not interested in hearing the answer if it's not the one you agree with. And there's nothing anyone can do about that. So, I'd like to move on, then, to a larger issue, one which I feel is even more important--the issue of respect and common decency. You don't know me. You don't know my family. You don't know my personality. All you know about me is what I choose to post on this website, and even then, it's clear to me that you misunderstand--unintentionally, I'm sure--a lot of what I write. I have been honest from the beginning that I'm not trying to change your mind on this issue, that I respect that you have different convictions regarding this issue, that I do not expect you to act in contradiction to your conscience, that despite our disagreement, I still consider you a brother in Christ. And how do you respond to that? "And Fernando, if you read this please don't give me your sad excuse of an interpretation you posted before. It didn't even warrant a response!" This is a sincere question for you, and I hope you respond: Why do you feel the need to be so disrespectful? Why do you feel the need to be so condescending? Is it really only because I disagree with you on an issue that is not even essential to the Christian faith? Are only those who agree completely with you on every issue deserving of your respect? This is a sincere question. Why do you feel the need to be so disrespectful to me? [delete comment]
And we wonder why Christianity is in the shape it is in in America! Political correctness instead of BIBLICAL correctness! The ignorance of so called preachers of the Word of God who can't accept that leadership is male in the home and in the church is appalling. Why don't you do a REAL study of some of your examples for women "preachers." You either believe the Bible and what it says in 1 Tim. 2:12-3:7 and other Scriptures or you don't! GOD CANNOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF! God can and does use women in ministry but not in authority over man in the church or in the home! Someone go ahead and explain what 1 Tim. 2:12-3:7 means. Give me your interpretation of those verses. And Fernando, if you read this please don't give me your sad excuse of an interpretation you posted before. It didn't even warrant a response! Someone tell me what these verses mean if they don't mean what they CLEARLY say! And if you use the excuse "It was only for Paul's day" I won't even respond to such ignorance! Let's pick and choose what we want to use from the Bible based on when it was said! Right! Like I said, it is no wonder why Christianity is in the shape it is in! [delete comment]
James Vanwinkle
August 9, 2012
When Paul sent Timothy and Titus to appoint overseers, elders-- they were to be the husband of one wife. There is no scriptural basis for women elders/overseers in the church of Jesus Christ. Just because seminaries accept women into these programs, and they feel they have a calling, does not negate the authority of scripture. [delete comment]
James Vanwinkle
August 9, 2012
When Paul sent Timothy and Titus to appoint overseers, elders-- they were to be the husband of one wife. There is no scriptural basis for women elders/overseers in the church of Jesus Christ. Just because seminaries accept women into these programs, and they feel they have a calling, does not negate the authority of scripture. [delete comment]
Really, context, the women of one place were open to deception. There appears to have been a lot of "I" and "me" used in the clip. It appears that John is saying women are not worthy of elder-ship. God granted authority to women the judge Debra being an example. Why cut your useful preaching, praying pulpit presence in half? [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 7, 2012
Dennis Cocks, I'm not saying we're reaching the same conclusions. I'm saying that you and I are both simply trying to interpret the Scripture faithfully in context. And fortunately, that's true whether you think it is or not. If you don't want to grant us the respect of acknowledging that, that's up to you. God alone knows each of our hearts. [delete comment]
Fernando, no I don't think what we are doing is the same. I still believe God wants women to look like women and men to look like men in our day as well as in Pauls' day. I still believe that God has given men the leadership role in the home as well as in the church and the way that women act and look should express that today as well as Paul's day. In 1 Cor. 11:5-6 Paul was saying that women shouldn't look and act like they were not honoring their husbands. The same applies today, Eph. 5:21-24, 33. And also the women were not to look like temple prosititutes. The same applies today as we are to come out from among and be separated from, looking and acting like the sinful world we live in. 2 Cor. 6:14-18. So even though it might not mean wearing a veil or putting their hair in a bun, the principle is still the same. 1 Tim. 2:12-3:7 is for our day as well as Paul's day. role [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 7, 2012
Dennis Cocks, I appreciate your response, and your acknowledgement that Paul's words have to be interpreted based on the larger Biblical and historical context. That's all some of us are trying to do with texts like 1 Tim 2:12, and others. Obviously, you don't agree with our interpretation, and that's fine. But what we're doing with 1 Tim 2 is in essence the same thing you did in 1 Cor 11. You don't have to agree with us, but at least grant us the respect of acknowledging that those of us who differ with you are also just trying to interpret the Bible as faithfully as we can. [delete comment]
Fernando, in answer to your question, "why Paul's command for women not to pray with their heads uncovered is not treated as seriously as his supposed command for women not to have authority over men." First, Paul is not speaking of the assembly here. In 1 Cor, 14:34 Paul says that women were not to speak "usurp authourity over the man" as 2 Tim. 2:12 also says, in the church. Now would he say that every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered dishonered her head and in the very same letter clearly command the women to keep silent in the church? So the verse in 1 Cor. 11:5 cannot refer to the gatherings of the church. As I've said many times in my disccusions of the role of women in the church, they can teach other women, children, win souls, and minister in many other ways. But in the home and in the church God ordained men to be the leaders. It doesn't mean we are better or smarter, it is just how God ordered things. The word "uncovered" refers to the woman's not wearing a veil. It might also refer to a woman's not wearing her hair up in a bun. Both the veil and the hairstyle were symbols that she was married and thus not free to act independently from her husband. If a woman didn't comply with these conditions, she implied that she was free from a man. If she was married, it would communicate that she was trying to be like the man in her independence. Some scholars report that the prostitutes in the temple of goddesses did not wear veils and had their hair cut short like men. Paul was saying that women should look like women, not like men. And men should also look like men and not have long hair (v. 14). Paul is saying that it is improper for a woman to be mistaken for a man by taking on man's styles. A woman must be consistent. She must act and look like a woman both in the home and in public. She cannot act and look like a woman in one place and then look and act like a man in another. It is important for both husbands and wives to accept their own self identities as husbands and wives and then to live like it. [delete comment]
Rick Smith
August 7, 2012
John Piper with all due respect you need to meet Jesus who is not a respecter of person. [delete comment]
Rick Smith
August 7, 2012
John Piper with all due respect you need to meet Jesus who is not a respecter of person. [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 6, 2012
By the way, after two days, I have yet to see anyone explain for me why Paul's command for women not to pray with their heads uncovered is not treated as seriously as his supposed command for women not to have authority over men. [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 6, 2012
Greg Nance wrote: "It appears that the women's role in the assembly is addressed in scripture at least twice where submissive silence is instructed. Must we dismiss that instruction?" I respect your views, but I'm curious as to why those two texts should trump the countless other texts describing women in positions of leadership among the people of God. Those two texts you cited appear to be saying one thing quite clearly, but only if you interpret them in a vacuum. But placed in the larger Biblical context, is it not possible that what those two texts are trying to say may be different from what a superficial reading may appear to say? [delete comment]
Interesting... I just finished a long call with my brother whose church is going through difficulty with defining "the role of women in the assembly." 1 Cor. 14:33-37 is too clear. Were it and 1 Timothy 2 not in the cannon of scripture we would not be having this discussion. When God created us in His image and likeness we enjoyed a unity we have since lost because of wrestling with what God has said. Perhaps the focus should center on returning to unity as the body of Christ in applying these texts to our assembly times. If we indeed are created in God's likeness and are to imitate God as dearly loved children, certainly we should listen to His instruction on how to carry out those assemblies and respect each detail He has provided. It appears that the women's role in the assembly is addressed in scripture at least twice where submissive silence is instructed. Must we dismiss that instruction? If not, how can we honor it? [delete comment]
Interesting... I just finished a long call with my brother whose church is going through difficulty with defining "the role of women in the assembly." 1 Cor. 14:33-37 is too clear. Were it and 1 Timothy 2 not in the cannon of scripture we would not be having this discussion. When God created us in His image and likeness we enjoyed a unity we have since lost because of wrestling with what God has said. Perhaps the focus should center on returning to unity as the body of Christ in applying these texts to our assembly times. If we indeed are created in God's likeness and are to imitate God as dearly loved children, certainly we should listen to His instruction on how to carry out those assemblies and respect each detail He has provided. It appears that the women's role in the assembly is addressed in scripture at least twice where submissive silence is instructed. Must we dismiss that instruction? If not, how can we honor it? [delete comment]
Anthony R. Watson
August 6, 2012
I would like to ask Mr. Piper one important question: Is God an equal opportunity employer? His response would be most welcoming. [delete comment]
Anthony R. Watson
August 6, 2012
Personally, I reject Mr. Piper's theology concerning this topic. The Apostle Paul wrote his letters and epistles in his own social, cultural, and historical contexts. Women in his day were treated as second class citizens, just as they are treated in Mr. Piper's church. I strongly believe that this sexist and patriarchal mindset must cease, along with what I call the three "isms," (1) sexism, (2) classism, and (3) racism. Women make up about 70 percent of most church congregations, and yet they make up approximetly 4 percent of the top positions. Something is wrong with this picture. [delete comment]
Raenelle Capes
August 6, 2012
Jesus called many women to join in his ministry. If women are not to teach, many of our children would receive no Christian education. As a woman, I was called to ministry in my 50's. I do not believe I am elevated over any man or woman. I am simply called as a shepherd to lead God's sheep. If we are all equal in the eyes of the Lord, which the Bible also tells us, why would God not call women to the pulpit? How could anyone who reads the scripture believe that following God's word could lead to this kind of judgment agains anyone? [delete comment]
Wow! An article that speaks to an issue I am passionate about in our day and age and have been writing about on Sermon Central for a while now, and I only made one comment...opps, two! : ) [delete comment]
mahndisa rigmaiden: This is somewhat off topic. I tried to respond but apparently was not able. If you want to contact me at mwm1998@gmail.com with your question I will be happy to discuss this issue. [delete comment]
Linda Robert
August 5, 2012
I think that God is very proud of each person who has responded whether we agree or not because it is quite obvious, that everyone involved in this discussion is desiring to be in the will of God. Each person has a view and feels that they can back it up scripturally and like the WORD tells us, "let the peace of God rule in your heart". I have enjoyed everyone's opinions and views, as each seems to desire "truth"! This discussion has been very helpful to me in teaching me how others view God's Word--this is so educational/informative. I am sure God enjoys listening to his children in such discussions, as he knows the intentions and motives of each heart and I believe no matter the view, he is pleased with each persons desire to want to be living in truth. Is not this the heart that God looks upon and whereby, we are judged? Great thoughts everyone! [delete comment]
Troy Pearsall
August 5, 2012
On this subject ai have wrestled with for many years, while I was a deacon and elder even until now. I ask god to give me clarity on this subject but I only get new arguments. Am I too legalistic? or concerning scripture? am I give too much liberty in the interpretation of scripture? I keep asking God not to make this a issue with me until he has given me an anaswer. [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 5, 2012
Alexander Shaw, I too wish that this wasn't a contentious topic; and this wouldn't be a contentious topic if people were willing to respect other's points of view, and not assume that anyone who held an interpretation of Scripture different from one's own was, by default, abandoning Scripture itself. However, I do find comfort in the fact that even the first century church, as much as we tend to romanticize it, was not without its own contentious issues. Peter got himself into some major hot water for daring to fellowship with a Roman centurion and his household, and even going as far as baptizing them when they believed the Gospel! I imagine those early exchanges were much more heated than anything on this site! And yet, God was able to move enough people to discern what the Holy Spirit was doing, set aside their own preconceived ideas, re-examine the Scriptures, and eventually develop a more biblical understanding of what it meant to be the family of God, and how the Gentiles fit into that family. I believe God is able to do that with this generation as well, on this issue and many others. God is still in control of his church!! [delete comment]
Alexander Shaw of Nairn Christian Fellowship
August 5, 2012
Wow - this subject certainly raises some comments! No wonder the Church of Jesus Christ today is so very different from the Church of Jesus Christ in the first three hundred years following her birth on the Day of Pentecost. Notice I say Church of Jesus Christ - that may or may not include some 'denominational folks'. This has become a contentious topic over these past 30 or 40 years in particular. It need not have become so, but some decisions made will be exceedingly difficult to reverse. Read and study carefully David Pawson's rather excellent book "Leadership is Male". This is a biblically based and bibically argued book - and we move into dangerous ground when we move away from Scripture. [delete comment]
Mahndisa Rigmaiden
August 5, 2012
Pastor I too disagree with your assessment for when Christ was born, Anna was in the temple and she spoke and prophesied the about his divinity. Have we forgotten about her? Did JESUS CHRIST ever put women in a subordinate position or are we just going to refer to Pauline gospels, for it was women who were the first at the cross. And after the ascension Jesus showed himself to Mary Magdala, I think often times people use male chauvanism to deny women who are gifted in the ministry their place in the church. John 20:10-18 shows how Christ visited Mary Magdala after the ascension and resurrection and Luke 2:36-38 about Anna speaking in the temple to all who would listen. This seems to be inconsistent with your stance on the matter. [delete comment]
Mahndisa Rigmaiden
August 5, 2012
Michael Morton what do you mean the trinity isn't Biblical? Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [delete comment]
Rhea Boone, be careful as you reference the Trinity. Although it is an accepted doctrine which I believe. It is not in scripture. This doctrine took many years to develop post early church. There was much division concerning this doctrine and many still do not accept it. Relating a man developed doctrine to this issue is a weak argument. And to all: So did God's command to go into all the world and preach the gospel only apply to the disciples Jesus was addressing or to all that followed? If it still applies to disciples today the how do you rule out women disciples? [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 4, 2012
Jon Pickens wrote, "Regardless, I think we can all be respectful of each other's views knowing that we are just trying to align ourselves with His Word." That is awesome, brother! That is exactly the attitude we all should display, regardless of which side of the issue we land on. Dennis Cocks wrote, "The Bible CLEARLY teaches male leadership." Actually, the Bible CLEARLY identifies Christ alone, not the male sex in its entirety, as the head of the church (cf. Eph 1:22; 5:23; Col 1:18--these are the only three texts in the entire NT where a "head of the church" is identified). As for the other issues, you and I have discussed them thoroughly, and there is no need to go into it again. I choose to follow Jon Picken's wise advice. I respect your views and believe that you are sincerely trying to align yourself with God's word. I would hope you grant the same Christian courtesy to me. Jamel Salter brings up a good point, and this is sincere inquiry. Could someone explain for me why Paul's command for women not to pray with their heads uncovered is not treated as seriously as his supposed command for women not to have authority over men? [delete comment]
Jon Pickens says "Start with Scripture... What in the world does living in the 21st century have to do with this discussion? The argument from 1 Tim. 2 goes back to creation, therefore, making culture irrelevant to the argument." Because its the only argument they have. The Bible CLEARLY teaches male leadership. So the only argument they have is to say "Paul was only speaking of his time." Every other argument they try to use such as women deacons and Debbrah, Huldau, and others can be easily explained with the Scriptures themselves. Those who try to argue Galatians 3:26-29 proves women can be leaders in the church over men show they don't know the Word of God and therefore they shouldn't be in the pulpit anyway. [delete comment]
Jon Pickens
August 4, 2012
Start with Scripture... What in the world does living in the 21st century have to do with this discussion? The argument from 1 Tim. 2 goes back to creation, therefore, making culture irrelevant to the argument. John is not saying women are inferior, he is saying that have a different God ordained role. It would be like saying Jesus is inferior to the Father because He is at the Father's right hand. Equal in essence, different in role. Why is this so difficult? There is a genuine struggle with 1 Tim 2:11-15 happening here. Why is someone considered archaic when they are using Scripture as their starting point and wanting to honor the Lord by obeying the Scriptures. I want to point out one flaw that I read... When Paul says that a woman should remain silent (as the NIV puts it), he does not mean that she shouldn't talk... It is the idea that she is to have a quiet and gentle spirit, submitting to the authority of the leadership (elders) of the church. I find it interesting that two verse later, Paul gives the qualifications for elders. Seems to emphasize that he is specifically talking about this office and the authority through its function. Regardless, I think we can all be respectful of each other's views knowing that we are just trying to align ourselves with His Word. [delete comment]
Glen Maidment
August 4, 2012
Pastor John, I like your ministry but on this topic i dis-agree with your explanation. There are many godly women who have done great things and have been great vessels for God. If a woman teaches from scripture why should it be wrong? Scripture is the important factor here and as long as it is being taught (bibically) it should be ok (not opinion but the pure word of God. [delete comment]
Glen Maidment
August 4, 2012
Pastor John, I like your ministry but on this topic i dis-agree with your explanation. There are many godly women who have done great things and have been great vessels for God. If a woman teaches from scripture why should it be wrong? Scripture is the important factor here and as long as it is being taught (bibically) it should be ok (not opinion but the pure word of God. [delete comment]
Glen Maidment
August 4, 2012
Pastor John, I like your ministry but on this topic i dis-agree with your explanation. There are many godly women who have done great things and have been great vessels for God. If a woman teaches from scripture why should it be wrong? Scripture is the important factor here and as long as it is being taught (bibically) it should be ok (not opinion but the pure word of God. [delete comment]
Linda Robert
August 4, 2012
HMMMM... The scriptures declare the following. Jesus, whose example is much more worthy to be followed spoke in Matthew 28:10 to Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (proof Matthew 28:1) and he said these words, "...Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me." These two Marys were the first two people to see Jesus after he had risen-- so it is obvious to me, that they were the first two to declare that Christ had risen-- this is what the Gospel is all about!! So the first two preachers of the resurrection of Christ were women!! As the Word declares, God is no respector of persons and in him, in the spiritual realm, there is neither male nor female!! Praise God whether male or female, if we are born again, we are the circumcision in Christ. [delete comment]
Linda Robert
August 4, 2012
HMMMM... The scriptures declare the following. Jesus, whose example is much more worthy to be followed spoke in Matthew 28:10 to Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (proof Matthew 28:1) and he said these words, "...Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me." These two Marys were the first two people to see Jesus after he had risen-- so it is obvious to me, that they were the first two to declare that Christ had risen-- this is what the Gospel is all about!! So the first two preachers of the resurrection of Christ were women!! As the Word declares, God is no respector of persons and in him, in the spiritual realm, there is neither male nor female!! Praise God whether male or female, if we are born again, we are the circumcision in Christ. [delete comment]
Harold Gibson
August 4, 2012
John Piper's remarks were ludicrous and what's up with the pulpit. It is plexiglass or wood there is nothing sacred about the furniture, and if the speaker does not love and respect and honor those to whom he or she is speaking then nothing of value is being spoken. I once hoped to hear piper preach but not anymore [delete comment]
Sandra Ekpenyong
August 4, 2012
I have read so many comments here, some have made me proud to be a minister and others have made me cringe as we are in the 21st century and I would have thought that this way of thinking was no longer applicable but I can see that I am very wrong! There is still a large place at it would seem for oppressive Christian doctrine that has nothing to do with Christ or the advancement of the church. Jamel Salter said it well when he mentioned about both the spiritual and cultural explanation of some of the doctrines written in the bible. Today we do not have slavery but there was once mentioned about servants submitting to their master. Another woman mentioned about sons and daughters prophesying and I guess we would need to find out in what capacity is acceptable according to Pastor Piper's standard. But I would like to start from the very beginning of Genesis when God blessed both man and woman, he understood that there was the possibility of man or woman thinking that they could handle kingdom matters independent of each other so he ensured that they would never be fully successful without each other. When Eve was pulled out of the rib of Adam, God wanted someone that was comparable to him, that is Adam's equal in every sense of the term, an idea that very insecure pastors would struggle with. God is not going to hook people up with another person who cannot continue the vision that He wants established. The fall in the Garden did not negate her position or her equality with Adam but rather, it defined it in regards to the marital area not necessarily ministerial position. When Jesus was returning to heaven, He systematically addressed the church as a female. Why is that? I would love to pose that question to the likes of Piper and hear his reasoning behind Jesus's doing so? Let us be honest that around the world, it has been women (not single-handedly) but in majority that build the church, invest their money, spend long nights praying for the growth, etc...yet it is the likes of Piper that places women back in the dark ages. I wonder what would happen if all women around the world decided not to invest in the Gospel? Where would that leave the church? At the end of the day, while I am very much aware that church symbolizes the bride of Christ, in Revelation, the last confrontation between the dragon (Satan) is not between man but rather between woman, the child and Satan. I think it will do us all well to understand that we need each other and end this type of divisive Gospel that the likes of Piper and others perpetuate. For those who believe that men have authority, I will like to pose to them that women do have influence. And while not everyone might yield to your authority, no one can resist a person with charisma and influence. Just something to think about. [delete comment]
In 1 Corinthians 12: 29 the Apostle Paul list different offices within the Church, and all are masculine positions. Nowhere did Paul or anyone else ordain a woman to an official position within the Church body. However, there are some churches that have given the pastor's wife an unbiblical office known as the "first lady of the church" but this is part of the Jezebel spirit." [delete comment]
It's unfortunate that too many of our convictions remain only half examined. It's time to think and to take another look at the things that we have been so cocksure about. Maybe it's time to look again at the presuppositions and lines of thought that do not lead beyond biblically borders though they may stretch mine. Personal I feel that pulpits ought not even be mentioned in a biblical discussion. [delete comment]
First of all I think this is more John Piper's opinion than doctrine. To begin with the pulprit cannot be used as the basis of preaching authority for pulpits are a paganistic invention. What if there were no pulprit? What if we had church in a home? Would it then be ok for a women to preach? So long as there is no pulprit in the vicinity? Secondly let's remember that some principles in the word are cultural others are universal. Is Paul's writing meant to be universally applied throughout the ages or to be kept within its cultural or historical context? Why stop there, why not require women to also cover their heads in church as well? Point is we must take care to employ sound tools of biblical interpretation to understand what the author really intended to say instead of a surface view that lead to unnecessary dogmas that only serve to stifle the freedom that we have in Christ. [delete comment]
Melissa Pratt of Teays Valley Church Of God
August 4, 2012
Hoping those in the discussion would peruse this: http://www.gci.org/church/ministry/women9 [delete comment]
Danny Loesch
August 4, 2012
It has been a huge mistake to trivialize the unique honorable roles God in His wisdom has ordained us to play as male and female. God is teaching the world His values and wisdom in the public worship of the church in everything we do. In 1Cor.14:26f Paul is very serious about this topic. 3 groups are told to be silent. the prophet is to stop talking IF another prophet has a revelation. The tongue speaker is to stop talking IF there is no interpreter. The woman is to remaine silent and no IF is stated! She is to remaine silent in the church because it is forbidden and shameful period! The man is present you see! No man present, no problem with her teaching other women good things like being submissive Tit.2:3-5. God is counting on us! [delete comment]
Keith B
August 4, 2012
It's not complicated. You either believe and obey scripture or you don't. [delete comment]
Danny A. Strickland
August 4, 2012
I will never stop being amazed at how people will take one verse of scripture and say that it conterdics another. Just because Galatians 3:26-28(KJV) 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. This scripture it talking about our salvation not a teaching or leading position in the church. With all the negitive respones to the scripture bro John is talking about in 1 Tim. I can see why jesus said in Luke. Luke 13:27 (King James Version) 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. God has not changed and his word has not changed. We live by the new testament which is made with the blood of Christ. The old testament was the law that showed us our sin and need for salvation. Jesus full filled the law. God has a wonderfull place in the church for women and a place for men. However satan has help human beings learn to compromiser and make more people see the word of God in whatever light they wish to see it in. I am sorry to say this is the world we live in now. This is why I believe so many are leaving the church or are just staying away. there is no consistency in the Gospel or Gods word and we do not always pratice what we preach. God is not Pleased. I sent this with the love of christ. [delete comment]
Danny Loesch
August 4, 2012
Rebellion comes in many forms. Satan has always conned people into thinking that God is cheating them and they can take what has been denied them. Ah, but look at the consequences our rebellion has brought. Paul said we all need to realize that God has a divine order of headship 1Cor.11:3. This is why the husband is the head of the wife and must take the lead in public worship of teh church. [delete comment]
Brad Brucker
August 4, 2012
Fernando, I didn't think it was that harsh brother. Forgive me! it was not meant to be taken that way. I just know a lot of awesome pastors of good, God honoring church who get slammed by people who don't want to do church on Sunday in a larger corporate setting and include all churches intentionally or unintentionally in a statement like our sisters. I believe The Local church, as messy as it is, is the hope of the world. Anyway, I'm out of this conversation. God Bless, Brad [delete comment]
In the New Testament, elders all had to be men. So that?s consistent with Paul?s specific instruction in 1 Timothy 2:12 where Paul says, ?I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first then Eve and Adam was not deceived. But, the woman who was deceived then became a transgressor.? I think this is or at least should be clear to all of us. [delete comment]
Rhea Boone
August 4, 2012
Scripture is clear here. Differing roles does not mean superiority vs. inferiority. Think of the Trinity. Totally equal but there is loving submission and preference shown. Women are equal, but God has established roles and authority in the church. Women can teach but not in the position of pastor/elder. Are there great teacher who are women, absolutely. Can women evangelize, absoleutly. This is not because women are more easily deceived! It is an issue of order and authority, not inequality or inability. Again, even the Trinity has order and roles of authority. How much more the need in the church. Unwillingness to submit to God's order and to think ours is better smacks of Satan's original sin, one both Adam and Eve bought into. And how's that been working for us? And yes, I am a women who teaches. [delete comment]
Rhea Boone
August 4, 2012
Scripture is clear here. Differing roles does not mean superiority vs. inferiority. Think of the Trinity. Totally equal but there is loving submission and preference shown. Women are equal, but God has established roles and authority in the church. Women can teach but not in the position of pastor/elder. Are there great teacher who are women, absolutely. Can women evangelize, absoleutly. This is not because women are more easily deceived! It is an issue of order and authority, not inequality or inability. Again, even the Trinity has order and roles of authority. How much more the need in the church. Unwillingness to submit to God's order and to think ours is better smacks of Satan's original sin, one both Adam and Eve bought into. And how's that been working for us? And yes, I am a women who teaches. [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 4, 2012
Brad Brucker, I stand in awe of your ability to begin a post by writing, "As for Eileen, go ahead and do your holy huddle at home... how many people have you led to Christ lately?" and then finish that EXACT SAME POST by writing, "So, we ought to be careful in slamming other Christ-followers." Wow. Seriously, bro...just...wow. I've got the post right in front of me, and I'm still trying to figure out how you got from A to B! By the way, I agree 100 per cent with the latter statement. I'd just like to suggest that you begin by looking at yourself, first. And when you write things that are offensive to people, please don't act surprised when people get offended! As for you're quote that, "The most spiritually mature person in the room (or posting) are [sic] those least likely to be offended;" it's been my experience that the most spiritually mature persons in the room are those least likely to be worrying about, or commenting on, who are the most spiritually mature persons in the room! [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 4, 2012
To the moderators: I accidentally hit the "Report this comment" link on one of the posts. Please disregard. My computer was not responding, and when I clicked the mouse, it finally responded, and the screen moved up to the link at the moment I clicked. My apologies. [delete comment]
Eileen Marshall
August 4, 2012
I have lead many non believers to Jesus in my home Brad, both men and woman overs the years and have took them to the " church" building where many have been put off by Religion and left, I have done most ministrys in the church, from teaching in Sunday school, leading home groups, running Alpha courses, preaching from the pulpit ! oh yes this mere woman has preached from the pulpit! I have been a Christian for 35years since I was 26years, I am now 61years and in all those years I have found that people just want to know, is there a God,and if there is does he love them and can He help them and Yes to all 3 questions,and when they hear the wonderful Good news of Jesus they embrace His wonderful Love and Grace and then they go to " church" and listen to preachers and pastors preaching religion and mixing " works" and Grace, well for myself and others we are standing up and saying " not anymore " enough is enough, we are not going to keep sharing God"s wonderful love to others to then be put off by those religious bigots anymore [delete comment]
Fernando Villegas
August 4, 2012
I'm not planning on getting too involved in this conversation; I've expressed my views as comprehensively as I can on earlier discussions where this issue has come up. I would like to make a few observations, though. First, I'm very encouraged by the greater number of women contributing to this conversation than has been the case previously. Second, Daniel C. Malloy wrote, "The reason why women are not allowed to teach in the the church is I Tim. 2:14, women are open to deception." I think you are misreading Paul on that specific point. What Paul seems to be saying is that women should be allowed to learn (v. 12) so that they would NOT be deceived. Which applies to men as well, by the way. There is no genetic male immunity to being deceived. The way men are not deceived is the same way as with women, by learning the Scripture quietly, in all submission. The fact that Paul singles women out makes sense when we consider that Paul wrote to a culture which did not exactly value the education of women very highly. Finally, Brad Brucker wrote, "[W]hy did [Jesus] choose 12 men, [sic] because The [sic] truth is it will take men to advance His Church and The Kingdom of God!" I think you are assuming way too much into Jesus' choice of twelve men than is actually in the text! But as long as we are assuming things, consider this. After Jesus was raised from the dead, he could've chosen to appear to the Twelve (or Eleven, at that point!) first. But he didn't. He purposely appeared to women first, and charged those women to be the first witnesses of his resurrection. Now, I find that highly significant, wouldn't you? Why would he do that? Could it be in order to demonstrate that women are as worthy to preach the gospel as men? [delete comment]
Charles Hargenrader of Elmira Nazarene
August 4, 2012
How very disappointing to watch this video. As an elder of a denomination that endorses women with equality I find these type of teachings as unacceptable. For 33 years I have watched women rise to leadership positions in our denomination with poitive results. How sad we still have people in the evangelical world who continue to want to silence women. It makes me heart sick to think that some would believe ministry should be limited to the male. [delete comment]
Ty Bradley
August 4, 2012
It hurst my heart that there are still vestiges of this way of thinking in the Evangelical church. I do wonder what some of the incredible professors (female and male) at Fuller Theological Seminary would think of this view permeating into the 21st century and being advocated by one of their own graduates. That said, I was disarmed by Rev. Piper's willingness to take full ownership of that belief and practice recognizing that it is his community's choice to interpret the relevant passages in that manner and practice accordingly. In the end, this view (which will always be able to be defended as a "purist" view of biblical reading) does suffer from many inconsistencies as it chooses to ignore cultural and era in their context here, but must of necessity allow other biblically mandated practices and acts to be seen as "only for back then" in order to have a workable faith. As a Pentecostal, may I also say the irony is all the more rich when one argues with one breath that the role that women enjoyed in the 1st century church must still be the model for today, but that they role of Holy Spirit with respect to outward manifestations in the 1st century church was for that special time only. At the end of the day, while I find it sad to see this kind of thinking still out there, God's grace covers all our human attempts to work these things out and the net fall out is just that these congregations do not get to be blessed by the anointing and preaching ministry that God has chosen to place upon countless women in the Church. Their loss. [delete comment]
Guntis Bukalders
August 4, 2012
One video about this topic: "Junia: Inside Out" http://vimeo.com/m/46930336 you can start watching at about 15:50. Romans 16:7. [delete comment]
Melissa Pratt of Teays Valley Church Of God
August 4, 2012
If "your sons AND your daughters" are supposed to prophesy (Acts 2:17) where are the daughters supposed to be prophesying? And if women are supposed to cover their heads WHEN they prophesy, (I Corinthians 11:5) where was that happening if it wasn't in the church? Why would Jesus trust a woman FIRST with the greatest news of all if He didn't expect her to tell any men? How could a woman lead a man astray if she is preaching God's Word? How can there be neither male nor female everywhere but the pulipit? (Galatians 3:28) While I understand the way some people arrive at their conclusion to prohibit women from preaching and pastoring based on the Scripture passages they cite, there are an equal number of Scriptures that support women in preaching/pastoring capacities. When DOES a boy become man? Who decides when a woman should no longer teach a boy? Is every 12 year old boy suddenly unable to learn anything from a woman? Do churches who hold this view of Scripture allow women to sing solos that proclaim the Gospel? Is it alright to "preach it" if you are singing, but not if you are speaking? Grateful to serve in a tradition that has always ordained women to the pastorate. I sure would have hated to have told God "no" when He called me. [delete comment]
Chaplain Peter
August 4, 2012
Why is it so hard to grasp that men are in charge. This is part of the luciferian agenda. Remember he seduced the woman? There is not only Biblical authority, but historical proof I now lay before which shall end all speculation: Ralf Cramdon and James Brown; It's a man's world. A 3 fold cord is hard to break! [delete comment]
Robin Gates
August 4, 2012
Is it political correctness, or Biblical correctness. Fear of God or fear of men? The Word of God is indeed a double-edged sword. "...a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." God will be the judge. No worries. [delete comment]
Eileen Marshall
August 4, 2012
Piper speaks a load of religious mumbo jumbo, us woman are the church too and we will have fellowship with all Believers in our own homes where we are equal. So many Christian are waking up to God's wonderful Grace and are leaving the "church" buildings now because we are fed up with religious bigots like piper,how does he expect to reach the non believer when he is preaching this sort of rubbish,he must think he is so superior and he is so very patronising to us women. [delete comment]
Jimmie Don Willingham
August 4, 2012
Funny, how God called women eldresses in In I Tim.5:2ff. Funny, also how a Puritan of the stature of Matthew Poole could make the observation that God did not permit a woman to speak or preach to men or teach them, except she be a special gifted and called persons such as....and he named all of the prophetesses of the Old and New Testaments. If that Reformed theologian could acknolwedge exceptions, why can't Dr. Piper? Is he doing old Rome's work for them? [delete comment]
Jimmie Don Willingham
August 4, 2012
Funny, how God called women eldresses in In I Tim.5:2ff. Funny, also how a Puritan of the stature of Matthew Poole could make the observation that God did not permit a woman to speak or preach to men or teach them, except she be a special gifted and called persons such as....and he named all of the prophetesses of the Old and New Testaments. If that Reformed theologian could acknolwedge exceptions, why can't Dr. Piper? Is he doing old Rome's work for them? [delete comment]
Jimmie Don Willingham
August 4, 2012
Funny, how God called women eldresses in In I Tim.5:2ff. Funny, also how a Puritan of the stature of Matthew Poole could make the observation that God did not permit a woman to speak or preach to men or teach them, except she be a special gifted and called persons such as....and he named all of the prophetesses of the Old and New Testaments. If that Reformed theologian could acknolwedge exceptions, why can't Dr. Piper? Is he doing old Rome's work for them? [delete comment]
Jimmie Don Willingham
August 4, 2012
Funny, how God called women eldresses in In I Tim.5:2ff. Funny, also how a Puritan of the stature of Matthew Poole could make the observation that God did not permit a woman to speak or preach to men or teach them, except she be a special gifted and called persons such as....and he named all of the prophetesses of the Old and New Testaments. If that Reformed theologian could acknolwedge exceptions, why can't Dr. Piper? Is he doing old Rome's work for them? [delete comment]
Lance Clay
August 4, 2012
I also believe we need to get back to the Bible and take it for what it says... who needs grace? we should all agree that the earth is flat... that women are the property of men... that slavery is approved by God... that polygamy is approved by God... that in order to win a bet with the devil, God let Satan kill all ten of Job's children... that God throws violent, raging, jealous fits and kills thousands in the process... that eating shellfish is an abomination to God... that wearing blended garments enrages God... that menstruating women and handicapped men are not allowed in public worship... that God's preferred system of government is a monarchy... that all governments including highly oppressive ones are established by God... that God approves genocide and commanded people to practice it... that women are to be silent in the church... that women are to wear veils in the church... that people who commit adultery are to be taken out and stoned to death.l. that the penalty for working on the Sabbath is execution... and that sassy teenagers are to be executed... If you can only hold a position on one scripture and not all then maybe you are not practicing what you preach and your a bigot. [delete comment]
Lance Clay
August 4, 2012
I also believe we need to get back to the Bible and take it for what it says... who needs grace? we should all agree that the earth is flat... that women are the property of men... that slavery is approved by God... that polygamy is approved by God... that in order to win a bet with the devil, God let Satan kill all ten of Job's children... that God throws violent, raging, jealous fits and kills thousands in the process... that eating shellfish is an abomination to God... that wearing blended garments enrages God... that menstruating women and handicapped men are not allowed in public worship... that God's preferred system of government is a monarchy... that all governments including highly oppressive ones are established by God... that God approves genocide and commanded people to practice it... that women are to be silent in the church... that women are to wear veils in the church... that people who commit adultery are to be taken out and stoned to death.l. that the penalty for working on the Sabbath is execution... and that sassy teenagers are to be executed... If you can only hold a position on one scripture and not all then maybe you are not practicing what you preach and your a bigot. [delete comment]
First let me say, ladies CAN make fine pastors just like men CAN. I find this conclusion to be in err. As I do baptism by sprinkling, most speaking in tongues, the view many hold that they may not be a hell, that the Trinity was invented by mankind. Isn't it great that we are all different and serving the same God to reach different people? I say you go John Piper, preach on and I say it to the rest of us as well. Preach the word as you see it, agrue the points and love one another! [delete comment]
Eleanor Allen
August 4, 2012
I concede that when the pastor, be it male or female is present to preach and offer congregational prayers, they are the one to do so. I don't abide with this ridiculous division between the sexes, as the Bible clearly shows God is no respecter of persons. The argument that Jesus chose 12 men is relative to the ministry he was walking in. The Jewish tradition would not have recognized women in the interactions with men of that day or culture. Also, lets face it, Jesus and his disciples traveled and exchanged a close relationship that would have made it morally questionable to include women on the road. As for women not taking authority over men,or being silent in church, I have read what Kenneth Hagin has said on this matter, and it seems that this misunderstanding stems from a weakness in translation from the Greek to English in the 1 Corinthians 14. It seems that there are no words in the Greek for Husband and Wife. If you translate this verse inserting husband and wife, then it makes sense. A married woman comes under the authority of her husband and he is the spiritual head of the household. It makes perfect sense that while out in public, she would not speak over her husband. I have read over some of Mr. Piper's writings and I have tremendous respect for him and his opinions.It saddens me that he seems to hold a stance that is prejudice against women in the pulpit. The Holy Spirit can use men and women equally. In the United Methodist Church, they encourage the "Body of Christ" to utilize the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as He gives us a calling to do so. [delete comment]
Paul Dancy
August 4, 2012
I Tim 14 and I Tim 2 are very clear on womens' roles in worship, and this does not put them into a lesser role in the church, just a different role. The Lord is very specific about gender issues in Scripture, and as soon as we ignore that it opens the door for homosexuality and allowing men to evade leading and supporting their families. There is nothing wrong at all with having a woman president or having female doctors, judges, law makers or company CEOs. There is only one place that God has forbidden women, and that's preaching in His Church. We need to take Him seriously. It is "a shame for women to preach" in the public worship setting... because it begs the question: WHERE ARE THE MEN? [delete comment]
Paul Dancy
August 4, 2012
I Tim 14 and I Tim 2 are very clear on womens' roles in worship, and this does not put them into a lesser role in the church, just a different role. The Lord is very specific about gender issues in Scripture, and as soon as we ignore that it opens the door for homosexuality and allowing men to evade leading and supporting their families. There is nothing wrong at all with having a woman president or having female doctors, judges, law makers or company CEOs. There is only one place that God has forbidden women, and that's preaching in His Church. We need to take Him seriously. It is "a shame for women to preach" in the public worship setting... because it begs the question: WHERE ARE THE MEN? [delete comment]
Carla Patterson
August 4, 2012
Piper's view are not worthy of print - this is not in the interest of theological reflection, but is on par with using scripture to form a basis for an argument for slavery. With so much that should be capturing our attention - shame on you for this digression. C. Patterson [delete comment]
Guntis Bukalders
August 4, 2012
John, I also respect your beliefs but sadly they ignore the resurrection of Jesus and new creation in Him and undo of the curse of Eden (after the Fall) by Jesus. Jesus restores humanity, His first messengers (apostles, if you wish) after the resurrection were women! Luke's Gospel even starts with the women, and ends with women. I hope some day men will see and understand what God did in Jesus... [delete comment]
Paul Dancy
August 4, 2012
I Tim 14 and I Tim 2 are very clear on womens' roles in worship, and this does not put them into a lesser role in the church, just a different role. The Lord is very specific about gender issues in Scripture, and as soon as we ignore that it opens the door for homosexuality and allowing men to evade leading and supporting their families. There is nothing wrong at all with having a woman president or having female doctors, judges, law makers or company CEOs. There is only one place that God has forbidden women, and that's preaching in His Church. We need to take Him seriously. It is "a shame for women to preach" in the public worship setting... because it begs the question: WHERE ARE THE MEN? [delete comment]
Paul Dancy
August 4, 2012
I Tim 14 and I Tim 2 are very clear on womens' roles in worship, and this does not put them into a lesser role in the church, just a different role. The Lord is very specific about gender issues in Scripture, and as soon as we ignore that it opens the door for homosexuality and allowing men to evade leading and supporting their families. There is nothing wrong at all with having a woman president or having female doctors, judges, law makers or company CEOs. There is only one place that God has forbidden women, and that's preaching in His Church. We need to take Him seriously. It is "a shame for women to preach" in the public worship setting... because it begs the question: WHERE ARE THE MEN? [delete comment]
Carla Patterson
August 4, 2012
Piper's view are not worthy of print - this is not in the interest of theological reflection, but is on par with using scripture to form a basis for an argument for slavery. With so much that should be capturing our attention - shame on you for this digression. C. Patterson [delete comment]
Paul Dancy
August 4, 2012
I Tim 14 and I Tim 2 are very clear on womens' roles in worship, and this does not put them into a lesser role in the church, just a different role. The Lord is very specific about gender issues in Scripture, and as soon as we ignore that it opens the door for homosexuality and allowing men to evade leading and supporting their families. There is nothing wrong at all with having a woman president or having female doctors, judges, law makers or company CEOs. There is only one place that God has forbidden women, and that's preaching in His Church. We need to take Him seriously. It is "a shame for women to preach" in the public worship setting... because it begs the question: WHERE ARE THE MEN? [delete comment]
Paul Dancy
August 4, 2012
I Tim 14 and I Tim 2 are very clear on womens' roles in worship, and this does not put them into a lesser role in the church, just a different role. The Lord is very specific about gender issues in Scripture, and as soon as we ignore that it opens the door for homosexuality and allowing men to evade leading and supporting their families. There is nothing wrong at all with having a woman president or having female doctors, judges, law makers or company CEOs. There is only one place that God has forbidden women, and that's preaching in His Church. We need to take Him seriously. It is "a shame for women to preach" in the public worship setting... because it begs the question: WHERE ARE THE MEN? [delete comment]
I agree with Bro. Piper. God's ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. Only mankind can define "under authority" as being inferior and challenge God's Word with modern ideals. But the Word of God is clear for those who will set aside our distorted human views and prejudices and simply choose to accept and obey God and His Word. [delete comment]
Robert Herron
August 4, 2012
I didn't even listen to the video, but went straight to the comments. It is such a shame that people like Mr. Piper have such narrowmindedness... Mr. Piper, and notice I don't call you Rev. you are wrong. My wife Preaches in my church, and women read Scripture and so far lightening hasn't struck anyone dead. All you do by bringing this up is stir the already boiling over pot. I feel sorry for you. [delete comment]
Elizabeth Mcmanus
August 4, 2012
As a female Pastor, all I can say is peace be with you and I will keep you and your congregation in my prayers; you are all missing out on so much. [delete comment]
Elizabeth Mcmanus
August 4, 2012
As a female Pastor, all I can say is peace be with you and I will keep you and your congregation in my prayers; you are all missing out on so much. [delete comment]
Elizabeth Mcmanus
August 4, 2012
As a female Pastor, all I can say is peace be with you and I will keep you and your congregation in my prayers; you are all missing out on so much. [delete comment]
Brad Brucker
August 4, 2012
Many posting here seem to be very offended! I have heard it said and I agree, "The most spiritually mature person in the room (or posting) are those least likely to be offended." I would much rather have a spiritually mature woman preach or pray or read scripture, than an immature man and vice versa! Wouldn't you? [delete comment]
Lisa Jenkins
August 4, 2012
I can't believe people are still falling for this. It's almost as if in the old days when people could not read the bible for themselves and had to have somebody else read and interpret it for them! Wake up! Anybody who has been to seminary, or maybe even if you haven't been to seminary, realizes that Paul was writing different letters to different churches for different reasons. The letters/epistles are situational. In ancient society, women AND men had different roles and different rituals in their pagan societies which conflicted with worship when those particular citizens of the culture became believers. In order to have 'order' and less 'distraction' Paul told a different thing to different churches and different leaders. HENCE, women keep silent over there! And hey you over there, your sons AND DAUGHTERS will prophesy! I am astonished!! Astonished!!! And by the way, why should women not pastor? Because Eve was deceived by a serpent? Well, then who was Adam deceived by? Eve?? He was deceived by somebody, because he didn't do any better than Eve! Some leadership authority Adam exercised eh??? He really stood his ground with that fruit situation, huh?? That's some leadership!!! And was Sampson deceived?? Duh! I knew this mindset existed, but every time I come across this stuff, I am astonished! Astonished! [delete comment]
Randy Hamel
August 4, 2012
With all due respect to this man of God I do not believe that his position holds any water spiritually. I do believe the scripture supports a women doing anything a man can do in the church. Paul said women should learn at home first. Women are not unlearned today. According to this view an unlearned man would have precedence over a learned woman with a PHD in theology. Then missionary women go to Africa from their churches where they preach and dance for hours. But it is OK there because, out of sight, out of mind. I am glad that God set me free from that bondage. Galatians 3:26 the key text. [delete comment]
Joseph Reynolds
August 4, 2012
John, I respect your beliefs but they are just sad, very sad. [delete comment]
Lisa Jenkins
August 4, 2012
I can't believe people are still falling for this. It's almost as if in the old days when people could not read the bible for themselves and had to have somebody else read and interpret it for them! Wake up! Anybody who has been to seminary, or maybe even if you haven't been to seminary, realizes that Paul was writing different letters to different churches for different reasons. The letters/epistles are situational. In ancient society, women AND men had different roles and different rituals in their pagan societies which conflicted with worship when those particular citizens of the culture became believers. In order to have 'order' and less 'distraction' Paul told a different thing to different churches and different leaders. HENCE, women keep silent over there! And hey you over there, your sons AND DAUGHTERS will prophesy! I am astonished!! Astonished!!! And by the way, why should women not pastor? Because Eve was deceived by a serpent? Well, then who was Adam deceived by? Eve?? He was deceived by somebody, because he didn't do any better than Eve! Some leadership authority Adam exercised eh??? He really stood his ground with that fruit situation, huh?? That's some leadership!!! And was Sampson deceived?? Duh! I knew this mindset existed, but every time I come across this stuff, I am astonished! Astonished! [delete comment]
Alexander Shaw of Nairn Christian Fellowship
August 4, 2012
This has become a contentious topic over these past 30 or 40 years in particular. It need not have become so, but some decisions made will be exceedingly difficult to reverse. Read and study carefully David Pawson's rather excellent book "Leadership is Male". [delete comment]
Brad Brucker
August 4, 2012
While I'm not a Piper fan mostly because of his dogmatic hyper Calvinism, I respect his view on this issue. It's biblically supported! And even modeled by Jesus! You have to ask "why did Jesus choose 12 men as his key leaders and not women? Listen, I'm for women in ministry! They have done a great job of holding ground, while men have adbicated their spiritual leadership role in the church and in the home. We have one women elder at Woodhaven Communtiy Church, because when we started it 12 years ago there was a shortage of male leaders - aka Debra in Judges! This is a secondary doctrine, not a primary! That's why when I did my internship at Willow Creek I could happily learn from Nancy Ortberg and Nancy Beach as they preached! I couldn't help but wonder though as Willow held a vocal egalitarian view... Would they really consider a women as senior pastor if and when Hybels retires?? Back to Jesus, why did he choose 12 men, because The truth is it will take men to advance His Church and The Kingdom of God! I say to our church boldly, "As the men go, so goes the church." Yes, I have seen very godly women lead local Methodist churches, but they are almost always declining. "Rise up oh men of God, the church on you doth wait!" [delete comment]
Kate Turner
August 4, 2012
How very sad that some people pull out bits and pieces of Scripture to keep other people "in their place." Thankful that God has seen fit to have women carry the Good News to countless others, and not held Eve's sin against her. His grace is boundless, and for lowly humans to think they know His mind is foolhardy. As a woman who regularly preaches from the pulpit, teaches Sunday School and works to bring others to Christ, I am offended that women in some denominations are treated as second class citizens. Justifying that practice by saying that women do a lot of "other" ministry doesn't make it more palatable. It is not my place to judge, but I am very joyful that when I got my calling from God there were no men telling me I couldn't respond. I will continue to pray for the misguided. [delete comment]
Sean Cockrell
August 4, 2012
and female deacons? another question...who was Junia mentioned in the Bible and what did she do? I think this debate always focuses on the surface without doing deeper digging...connecting more than one or two texts. I encourage everyone to dig deeper when they study their Bibles and not rely on church tradition to dictate our decisions. This is coming from a man who grew up in a church that believed that it was our way or you are going to hell. Real study will open your eyes to a lot of things...if your heart will allow truth to enter. [delete comment]

August 4, 2012
Let's cut the nonsense. Women are second class in some churches because the pastor who invtes a woman to assume an equal role would be fired immediately by the Elders - usually a group of aged men who are clinging to their positions by denying women their rightful place in God's worship. This killing those churches. Try this: go to a local high school and ask the young women if their church permits them to take part. Then tell the local churches who give women their rights to prepare for an increase in attendance. [delete comment]
Juanita G Ricard
August 4, 2012
Some of the greatest preachers were women. God raised up Evangeline and Catherine Booth of The Salvation Army. When Evangeline Booth spoke not even a baby cried in her services. God calls men, women, and chidren to preach. In the Bible when it says a woman is not to speak in the church it was not talking about ministry. Dale Evans said that she asked a Holy Land Guide about that. These guides were required to know the culture of those days, and the reason that was said was because some of them weres sitting in a balcony or way in back of the synagogue and could not hear what was being said-so they would call out "what did he say?" And so they said that women could not speak in the service, to wait and ask their husbands what was said. No one should forbid anyone to speak the Gospel when Christ has called them to this ministry.Many a soul has been saved through even a child preaching. God called me when I was three years of age to the ministry. I led my first service when I was eight and preached in an OpenAir Service at 12. God does call women to preach and those who do not take advantage of all God's Calling sure do miss a rich blessing. People have a habit of making the Bible say what they want it to instead of letting it say what God says. For this they will answer to God. Revelation tells us that. [delete comment]
Rodney Shanner
August 4, 2012
"I will pour out my Spirit on ALL people. Your sons AND DAUGHTERS will prophesy (preach). . ." Acts 2 and Joel. [delete comment]
Rodney Shanner
August 4, 2012
"I will pour out my Spirit on ALL people. Your sons AND DAUGHTERS will prophesy (preach). . ." Acts 2 and Joel. [delete comment]
Rodney Shanner
August 4, 2012
"I will pour out my Spirit on ALL people. Your sons AND DAUGHTERS will prophesy (preach). . ." Acts 2 and Joel. [delete comment]
Jon Pickens
August 4, 2012
How do you reconcile a view of women having spiritual authority over a man in the official function as a pastor/teacher/elder with 1 Timothy 2:11-15? I think it's good to wrestle with the text of Scripture. I agree with Piper, though it would have been nice to use Scripture as a starting point instead of their practice in his answer. When Paul says, "I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man." It brings up the question of why. Was it their culture... If so why does he go back to the created order... "because Adam was created first and then Eve." This is the text... how do you reconcile it if you believe that the Word of God is inspired by God? John's position is actually a middle ground position because women are allowed to teach and pray except in (what they have determined to be) an official elder type of role. Our culture cannot be our starting point for what we feel should happen in God's church... the starting point is Scripture. Let us be careful that the dog wags the tail not vice versa. [delete comment]
Jon Pickens
August 4, 2012
How do you reconcile a view of women having spiritual authority over a man in the official function as a pastor/teacher/elder with 1 Timothy 2:11-15? I think it's good to wrestle with the text of Scripture. I agree with Piper, though it would have been nice to use Scripture as a starting point instead of their practice in his answer. When Paul says, "I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man." It brings up the question of why. Was it their culture... If so why does he go back to the created order... "because Adam was created first and then Eve." This is the text... how do you reconcile it if you believe that the Word of God is inspired by God? John's position is actually a middle ground position because women are allowed to teach and pray except in (what they have determined to be) an official elder type of role. Our culture cannot be our starting point for what we feel should happen in God's church... the starting point is Scripture. Let us be careful that the dog wags the tail not vice versa. [delete comment]
Richard Graf of Interim Pastor - Kimball Lutheran
August 4, 2012
...and Jesus weeps. [delete comment]
Jimmie Tempano
August 4, 2012
Whether a woman should be allowed to preach or not has been hashed to death. I doubt if anyone?s mind is going to be changed by either the video or the comments. Some churches are OK with women in the pulpit and some are not. Are there not enough churches, especially here in America, that people can go to, whatever their persuasion is on this point? Are any of those commenting believing that this point is a determining factor whether a person is a believer? I think some people just like to argue. Is that really the purpose of this site? What really bugs me, as long as we are arguing, is making preaching and pastoring synonymous. They are two very different gifts. There are folks who are strong preachers and really deliver God's word but they are not pastors. They do not shepherd or, at least not well, because they do not have that gift. I am not blaming or accusing but we need to recognize these are two separate gifts and they should not be co-identified. Can we stop doing that? [delete comment]
I gotta tell you folks, I am sick of this whole conversation... Titus told us to "avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." Do you seriously believe that God would automatically disqualify 50 of the population based on gender... but select you with all of your faults? It is time we woke up to simple truth. The men believe that the pastoral ministry is a office of power like a king, and therefore they have a God given authority over the congregation... therefore women can't have that position... Don't you folks know that the pastoral ministry puts you in a position of being a servant... who pray tell can not serve? Interpret Paul's writings any way you want, but I don't believe he got up one morning and said I think I'll write some Bible... He wrote letters which we... humans... people just like you and me decided to include in the Holy Writ... and for 2,000 years we have been fighting and disqualifying based on our feelings at the moment... Dear God, there is a world perishing out there, seems like we have more important issues. [delete comment]
Priscilla Hammond
August 4, 2012
Remember that time when Jesus said, "Women can't preach."? Yeah, me neither. [delete comment]
I agree with Bro. Piper. God's ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. Only mankind can define "under authority" as being inferior and challenge God's Word with modern ideals. But the Word of God is clear for those who will set aside our distorted human views and prejudices and simply choose to accept and obey God and His Word. [delete comment]
Joshua Welch
August 4, 2012
Jim, I feel like you are misrepresenting the position of Piper and others who would take the stance he takes. Nothing in Scriptures forbids a woman from personally speaking to another about the Lord. The Samaritan woman did so, Priscilla did so with her husband (Acts 18:26) and there are certainly teaching roles women are expected to fill (Titus 2:1-5). So, your argument which assumes Piper is opposing private and personal evangelism is not consistent with the real argument Piper is making against the use of women in a teaching role in the public assemblies of the church. This argument is founded in Scriptures (1 Corinthians 14:34; 1 Timothy 2:11-12). As evangelists, it is not our job to uphold what "Wesley" or any other theologian thinks about Scripture. It is our job to defend what Jesus and His inspired apostles taught. I do think we should be careful about assuming the reasons why the New Testament requires men to lead in public worship. 1 Timothy 2 simply uses the order of creation and the order of deception as the explanation behind the role of man and woman. Yet, it does not suggest women are more gullible or easily deceived than men--clearly both Adam and Eve fell. Eve was just the first to do it. Like it or not, this is what God's Word says about the roles of men and women. Please keep in mind what Paul, who many will disregard, says about his commands a bit later in 1 Corinthians 14:37, "If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." [delete comment]
So disappointing, prejudice against women has no place in the church. You ask what is done in my church I preach and teach to all men women boys and girls the same and ask them to openning their hearts to a call to serve the Lord. I believe in teaching women and girls the gospel and that they are not saved by getting married and having children. There is a world of people out there and the great commission has no exclusions of women and girls. When I teach Sunday school and camp i don't keep boys and girls apart so girls don't get any lofty ideas. The worse thing that can happpen is when a person gets a call to the ministry and the church that planted that seed stomps on it, I don't see why John Piper would disagree. Why couldn't women read the bible to church,, is that supposed to be done at home in secret. Many seminaries are full of women who waited twenty years for the church to catch up with the calling they have felt on their lives. [delete comment]
Jim Ressegieu
August 4, 2012
Gosh, I'm glad Jesus didn't follow Daniel's and both John's views when in the 4th chapter of the Gospel of John he spoke to a woman and that woman went back to her people and actually TOLD others about Jesus and they came out to hear him in person. Some male preachers today would have probably preferred to have Jesus say to the woman, "You go back and get your boyfriend, I have something to tell him and I want him to tell others because as a woman you'd OBVIOUSLY be deceived or confused or whatever else is your weakness. Wake up male preachers--I've never seen where Jesus made women second class citizens. I think it's interesting that every so often the ultra-conservative among us need to "put women in their place." [delete comment]
Karlene Roberts
August 4, 2012
This is sad! so sad. smh [delete comment]
Valerie Eastwood
August 4, 2012
the answer is that you don't hear women in these roles because the way he sees it these are pastoral or elder functions. The real answer is the way he sees it is that women are not qualified to fill those roles. He typically goes on to say "its a pretty small little place," and women have a lot of other things they can do, so they shouldn't feel discriminated against. Really? He thinks that helps? If you have experienced a profound calling to preach, to serve, just where do you think that comes from? One third of US seminary students are women right now. Open your eyes, John. [delete comment]
John Modgling
August 4, 2012
It is so good to hear a popular evangelical preacher come out and publicly and unashamedly stand for what is so clearly stated in the New Testament. Church, we must get back to submission and obedience to Scriptural authority. Otherwise, the decline of this nation will continue to get worse. [delete comment]
Susan Elkow
August 4, 2012
It is hard to believe educated people would actually believe this kind of thinking! Even John Wesley recognized the error of the historical interpretation (or lack of interpretation) of the classic passages "forbidding" women in the pulpit and permitted women in Methodist pulpits. He said that when it was all said and done, he couldn't deny their call to the pulpit. I refer you to Galatians 3:28 which addresses the global church, not just an individual church situation. Limiting what gender or race can take the pulpit is limiting God. Why would God care who preaches the word... as long as He has called that individual and they speak the truth. In God's eyes "we are all one in Jesus Christ." And, btw Daniel, I have seen a lot of male pastors subjected to deception - pornography is the number one addiction among male pastors - and lead others into deception in adulterous affairs [delete comment]
Daniel C. Malloy
August 4, 2012
The reason why women are not allowed to teach in the the church is I Tim. 2:14, women are open to deception. The scripture says women should not be allowed to teach (anyone) or have authority over men. Why should other women or children be subjected to deception. The end times great apostasy will be ushered in by deception let us be sober minded and love the truth, in the name of Jesus. [delete comment]

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