If you want to continue using the old site, you still can here.
  • Favorites
  • Print
  • Rate Me

preaching article 8 Reasons Why Some Churches Never Grow

8 Reasons Why Some Churches Never Grow

based on 9 ratings
Jan 15, 2014

1. The Vision Is Not Clear

If people don’t know where a church is supposed to be going, then it will attempt to go everywhere and eventually wind up nowhere.  (Interesting experiment—ask people this coming Sunday at your church, “What is our vision” and see if people give you the same answers or different ones.)

2. The Focus Is on Trying to Please Everyone

There is NO church on the planet that will make everyone happy every single week—and according to the Scriptures, that isn’t really supposed to be our obsession.  Too many times, we become so concerned with offending people that we actually offend Jesus.

3. Passionless Leadership

When a leader does what he/she does for a paycheck and not because it's their passion … it’s over.  I’ve said it before … I want difference-makers, not paycheck-takers.  Also, it is hard to be passionate about a place when a person's average stay at a church is two years or less.

4. Manufacturing Energy

If a program is dead in a church … then it needs a funeral, and the people need to move on.  Investing time, energy and money into something that is dead will not revive it.  Celebrate the fact that “that” program had its day … and then move on.  AND quit trying to fire people up over events that you would not attend if you were not on staff.

5. Lack of Prayer

Many times, we work so hard putting our ideas together that we actually think there is no need for the supernatural power of God to be involved.  Prayer should not be the good luck charm that we stick at the beginning or the end of what we do … but rather it should be our constant desperation to see God do the undeniable among us.  Intense desperation often brings undeniable revelation!

6. Unwillingness to Take Risks

When our focus becomes to play it safe rather than to do whatever it takes to reach people far from God … it’s over.  NOWHERE in the Scriptures did God ever ask anyone to do anything that didn’t involve an “oh crap” moment.  We’ve GOT to be willing to embrace the uncertain if we want to see the unbelievable.

7. Disobedience to the Scriptures

Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:15, Luke 24:48, John 20:21, Acts 1:8, II Corinthians 5:16-21, Luke 19:10 … I could go on and on … but we MUST understand that Jesus didn’t come to Earth, live here for 33 years, give HIS life for us, and then return back to heaven to intercede for us so that we could get in really little circles and talk about ourselves and condemn those who are not as good as us.  We are called to REACH PEOPLE FOR GOD—PERIOD!

8. Selfish Attitudes  

Matthew 20:28 says it all … and if we are going to be more like Jesus, we’ve GOT to serve others rather than expecting the church to be our servant all of the time.  When a person (or group of people) refuses to embrace that a call to follow Jesus is a call to serve … then we’ve lost sight of who He is, and eventually, we will make being a Christian all about Jesus following/serving us rather than us taking up our cross and following Him!



Perry Noble is the founding and senior pastor of NewSpring Church in South Carolina. The church averages 26,000 people during weekend services at multiple campuses throughout the state. Perry is a gifted communicator and teacher, convicted about speaking the truth as plainly as possible. God has given him a vision and a passion for helping people meet Jesus, and each week he shares God’s word and its practical application in our daily lives. Perry, his wife Lucretia and their daughter Charisse live in Anderson, South Carolina. You can read all of Perry’s unfiltered thoughts about life and leadership at PerryNoble.com. Don’t worry, he holds nothing back.

Talk about it...

Michael Roberts avatar
Michael Roberts
0 days ago
Excellent points in this article. We are to serve and not worry when the persecution comes.When we learn to stand for the Gospel blessings abound.
Chris Surber avatar
Chris Surber
0 days ago
There are some valid insights in this article from Perry Noble. This is something we commonly see from Perry Noble and a lot of folks associated with similar movements. Obedience to the Scriptures absolutely includes reaching the lost but it also includes a whole host of other things including sanctification holiness personal righteousness internal church accountability not to mention the accountability of the lives and conduct of Christian leaders. This is a good article is a lot of truth year but our emphasis needs not only to be on reaching the loss but obedience as a well-rounded understanding of scriptural commands.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
"obedience as a well-rounded understanding of scriptural commands." An excellent point! Thanks for sharing!
Zachary Bartels avatar
Zachary Bartels
0 days ago
Perry Noble? Really? <facepalm>
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
An ad hominem argument: the evasion of the actual topic by directing the attack at your opponent. It is a very common logical fallacy. Perhaps it may be more beneficial and edifying to the conversation if you addressed something specific from the actual content of the article to which you objected.
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
The point stands, though, that there are so many, much better guys to lift up as examples of how to do ministry.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
Actually, no. A logical fallacy invalidates the point being made. The point may very well be true; then again it may equally well be false! But in order for the point to "stand" as valid, you would have to provide a much stronger logical case. You have yet to address anything specifically from the content of the article that you disagree with, as well as to provide sources for any of the accusations you've charged against him. Just throwing out baseless accusations and claiming that his "antics" are well known does not even come close to proving your point.
Frank Ketoret avatar
Frank Ketoret
0 days ago
Good. Enjoyed this. Mission is simple: to love, how to make an efficient business out of loving others? We can grow only as the genuine passion is there for personal relationships. But the growth will be limited to the leading of the 'genuine Holy Spirit leadership' Prayer is key here. Thanks :-)
  avatar
0 days ago
All the points raised in this articles is correct. However every churches must be prayer church and heaven focus. It is when the church pray they allows the Spirit of God to direct.
  avatar
0 days ago
All the points raised in this articles is correct. However every churches must be prayer church and heaven focus. It is when the church pray they allows the Spirit of God to direct, then they will have blessings from above.
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
Or maybe God doesn't want them to be big? Sometimes big isn't better. Newspring is a great example of a church that is a bad church--even though it's big.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
I agree that bigger isn't always better. I read some research one time that concluded that, statistically, ten churches of one hundred members each would together win more converts--in raw numbers, not just percentage--than one church of one thousand members. I think a much wiser way to grow the Church and win people to Jesus is to plant many small churches, rather than to try to grow one church indefinitely big....On a different matter, if one is going to offer a judgement of a group of believers who are a part of the Body of Christ ("Newspring is a great example of a church that is a bad church--even though it's big), doesn't Christian integrity require one at the very least to provide evidence for such an accusation?
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
My evidence for such a statements is Perry Noble, the pastor. There have also been numerous guest speakers that have twisted God's word.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
Would you like for someone to stand up in your church after you finish your sermon and tell everyone, "This is a great example of a bad church, because of Keith B, the pastor?" If not, what gives you the right to do it to him? Whatever "twisting of God's word" you may attribute to Mr. Noble or to "numerous" guest speakers at NewSpring church, the sad fact is that your blatant disobedience to our Lord's command to treat others as we ourselves would like to be treated is here for all to see. By your own comments, you have condemned yourself and demonstrated that you are no better than Mr. Noble.
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
Wait...your judging me because of me judging Noble? Thats ironic. Noble has a track record of stupid antics. He has taught messianic passages and applied them to Steven Furtick. He flat out lied and was caught lying about his use of an AC/DC song on Easter. He had Jentzen Franklin come in and fleece his sheep. He is not qualified to be a pastor.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
No, I'm not judging you at all. You're own words are published here for all to see. Answer me this question, and the answer you yourself provide will judge you as innocent or guilty: Would you like for someone to stand up in your church after you finish your sermon and tell everyone, "This is a great example of a bad church, because of Keith B, the pastor?" If you can honestly, sincerely answer me that yes, you would like that, then I will apologize to you right here before everyone. If, however, you answer that no, you wouldn't like that at all, then your own answer will condemn you of being disobedient to the Lord's command to treat others the way you would like to be treated. And if so, why would someone who is disobedient to one of the Lord's clearest and simplest commands be any more qualified than Mr. Perry to be a pastor? Here is your opportunity to vindicate yourself and make me eat crow. What is your answer?
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
If I had Perry Nobles track record I would expect it.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
I find your deflection fascinating. The question is simple, and the command is clear. We are instructed by our Lord to treat others exactly the same way we ourselves would like to be treated. No qualifications are given. We are to do so even (and perhaps ESPECIALLY) to those whose "track record" we do not approve of. If you are confident that you have been obedient to that command, why is it so difficult for you to answer a simple question? Then again, perhaps your non-answer is telling. It's easy to come on a forum such as this and throw out a bunch of accusations against the author, without even having the integrity to link to sources to support your accusations. But when the tables are turned on YOU, and worse yet, the evidence against you is written clearly in boxes on this very page with your name on the top...well, I suppose it wouldn't feel so good when you're on the other side. Perhaps that is why it's so difficult to answer such a simple question. I don't know if you're the same person who used to comment on this site a long time ago under the username "kb." If you're not, please disregard the following, as it does not apply to you. But if you are, I seem to remember you having a track record of your own of always commenting on any article written by this particular author and--regardless of the actual content of the article itself--making accusations against him without (to my recollection) ever providing sources for your accusations. If that is you, then you may not have the author's track record, but you have your own. And given your own track record, perhaps you should've expected someone to call you out eventually on such un-Christlike behavior.
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
Bill, I don't mean to deflect. You decided me stating Noble was not a solid preacher is equivalent to standing up in church and declaring it. It's not. Noble has demonstrated repeatedly by doing some pretty stupid antics, and flat out bad teaching for years that he is NOT the type of guy we should be looking to. Instead, you attack anyone that dares to point that out.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
You may not "mean to deflect," but that's what you're doing. And you're still doing it! No, you did not state that the author was not a solid preacher. You wrote, and I'm quoting YOUR own words, "Newspring is a great example of a church that is a bad church." Seriously, man, you wrote what you wrote and you can't change it once you press "save comment." It's there for everyone to see. A church is not some impersonal, abstract institution. A church is a community of brothers and sisters who profess faith in Christ. And you have cast judgement on ALL of those who attend NewSpring Church as bad. Not to mention that you most likely do not know most of these brothers and sisters, if any at all. "The one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me." By rejecting the disciples of Christ at the NewSpring Church, you are rejecting CHRIST HIMSELF, as well as the Father who sent him! My brother, I fear that you do not realize the seriousness of what you have done! You are so focused on the supposed splinter in the author's eyes, that you are completely oblivious to the massive log in your own eye! I can assure you, the Scriptures are clear that Christ takes your comments personally. This is the Bride of Christ you are so glibly dismissing as "bad." And then you think you are entitled to a free pass just because you "dare" to point out to us all the splinter in the author's eyes. My brother, don't flatter yourself. You are not daring anything. Your comments are not courageous by any means. Apart from reproof from a concerned brother in Christ, you're not suffering any consequences from what you wrote. Comments like yours are written by people who have nothing to do with Christ a million times a day, if not more. How sad to see comments like that on this site, where we are all, presumably, Christian preachers and leaders. This is unacceptable. Now, returning to my question, here is my rationale for asking it. And bear in mind, I am not attacking you at all. I'm simply turning your own words back on you. If you really felt your words were appropriate, you would not feel "attacked." The author has shared a message to the readers of this site that he believes will be beneficial, comparable to you sharing a sermon to your congregation that you believe will be beneficial to them. Once he was finished, you "stood" in front of everyone and shared a message of your own. This is comparable to someone standing up in front of everyone after you finish preaching and sharing a message of their own. So, yes, I do believe the hypothetical situation I set up in my question is comparable to what you have done here. So, the message you gave here is this, and again I am quoting YOUR OWN WORDS, I'm not paraphrasing you, I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm not even correcting a typo: "Newspring is a great example of a church that is a bad church...My evidence for such a statements is Perry Noble, the pastor." Now, simply substitute your name for "Perry Noble" and your church's name for "NewSpring Church." Simple question, yes or no: Would you like it if someone in the context I described said those words to you and your church?
Dani Mills avatar
Dani Mills
0 days ago
If you have read your Bible, you would know that we are COMMANDED by Christ to be His hands and feet to spread the word of His salvation. I am sorry, but YOU, Sir are not being obedient to the command. Jesus did not enter the temple and tell everyone not to worship in it, knowing that there was an abundance of sin. He did, however remind us of the Ten Commandments, one of which states, "Thou Shalt not Covet." Look at it this way, there is absolutely no way a church will NOT grow if the pastor of the church does what he is commanded by Christ to do and that is to reach out to the lost and bring them home. A pastor of a church that believes that he only needs a specific number of followers is like Jesus saying, "No thank you, I have enough right now and really don't think I can save any more today, but if you come back on a later date we will see what we can do then" to a sinner who is down on his knees in prayer begging for salvation.
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
Do you believe God is in control? Is he in control of EVERYTHING? Or just what we can't do ourselves? If a church is small its because God has not made it big.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
Umm...I'm not sure I would go that far. As I wrote above, I do believe in the value of small churches. Church growth does not necessarily need to lead to a big church. A church that remains intentionally small but which grows by continually planting new churches is being obedient to God's command to seek and to save the lost. On the other hand, there's no inherent value in the concept of a small church, itself. And some (many?) churches are small, not because God has not made them big, but simply because they are not healthy, or because they are not seeking and saving the lost. Just because God is in control of everything does not logically mean that everything that happens is because God caused it. It is possible for someone to be in control of a situation without having caused it nor desired it.
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
My concern is that Perry is placing all of the responsibility on the pastor to grow a church---as if more people means a better church. I pastor a church in a rural setting. There are less people in my county than go to a Sunday service at Newspring. Does that mean I dont have the right vision? Or that I am not king risks? Or that I dont manufacture enough energy? Maybe God does want to reach people outside the big cities, too.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
Those are all fair points, and I don't disagree. I'm not sure that the author intended to place all of the responsibility of growing a church on the pastor, but I agree that the article can give that impression. I don't think it's unreasonable based on the article alone to wonder whether that conclusion might be true. I'm not really familiar with the author's ministry, apart from what I've read from him on this site, so personally I would grant him the benefit of the doubt. And of course, I agree that in a rural context there will always be a limit to how much a church can grow compared to a urban or suburban context. Personally, as I read the article, I think there are some good principles that have merit (for example, his discussion on the lack of prayer under reason #5), and I qualify what he says for myself with the reminder that growth does not necessarily mean a bigger church--growth can also mean a multitude of small churches.
Lacy Hardee. Jr avatar
Lacy Hardee. Jr
0 days ago
Where is any proof to your statement that Newspring is a bad church? Has God given you the gift to make the assessment of any of HIS churches?
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
Have you listened to Perry preach? His antics are well-known. He flat out lied in the pulpit regarding the use of AC/DC's song "Highway to Hell" in an Easter Service (what "good church" does that, btw?). But besides the point, the church has hosted a number of well-known bad teachers--guys like Jentzen Franklin. Besides the poor preaching of Nobel and Clayton King, the other "teaching pastor". We can only base our impression of the church on the people leading it.
Robert Bravo avatar
Robert Bravo
0 days ago
I agree with all those points I just think the title should be changed to "Why churches dont reach the lost" Our focus shouldn't be to grow the church, that would make it a business. Our focus is to reach the lost. I know its a play on words but the motive is important. Christ builds the church, we reach the lost. But other then that great incite on things necessary to achieve this goal.
Dani Mills avatar
Dani Mills
0 days ago
Although I enjoyed the insight, I believe that the reason that a church does not grow is because the pastor in the church is afraid of it getting out of control so he keeps it in a neat little manageable congregation so that he has more control over them that they cannot vote him out, fire him or split off to form another sect. But in my experience, don't just take it from me do your own research...the very churches in trouble; the ones who vote out the pastor and split to form a new sect are the smaller churches with congregations of a hundred or so regular goers. What do YOU think the reason behind that is?
Don Stowell avatar
Don Stowell
0 days ago
I believe you are right in some circumstances. I've seen it before. However, most of the time, I think it is truly a lack of vision, cooperation, and trust in God.
Henry Jeroh avatar
Henry Jeroh
0 days ago
THIS ARTICLE IS VERY MUCH ON POINT ALL YOU NEED DO IS TO ADAPT IT TO YOUR CHURCH AND PUT IN MIND WHERE YOU ARE LOCATED. ALSO NOTE THAT TWO CHURCHES IN THE SAME COMMUNITY WILL NOT SUCCEED AT THE SAME SPEED REASON BEING SOME OF THE POINTS RAISED IN THIS ARTICLE
Tamunobere Philip-Brown avatar
Tamunobere Philip-Brown
0 days ago
fwhile I agree with Henry's comment, I am also inclined to think that the foundation of the founder or overseer of the church is important to the growth of the church. the Bible says that if the foundation is faulty what can the righteous do? Many at times, if a pastor of a church is covenanted to an idolatrous foundation or unbroken evil alters of his ancestors without consciously dealing with it, the likelihood is that there could be limitation or stagnation associated with such evil alters speaking and accusing. and that could be a possible impediment to spiritual or numerical growth of a church. I belong to a local church that was commissioned 18years ago and had moved from one rented place to another for 16years of its 18years of activities. with not more than 120 regular worshippers. the general overseers, a Philipino, and his wife started the church in Nigeria and also runs a school in the name of the church. half of the employees in the school forms part of the church congregation. And the pastor, with so much passion for growth has been struggling. I just decided to leave the church this January for good as continued stay seem to also affect my material and spiritual growth.
Rev. Roger Olsen avatar
Rev. Roger Olsen
0 days ago
AWESOME ARTICLE! This article helped validate that we are doing things in the right direction. This was a great compass for us!
Elias Cubar avatar
Elias Cubar
0 days ago
I dont know Perry Noble but his arguments are true: to those preachers or pastors that is affected by it. If a preacher or pastor have done all his best for God, and is holy, sanctified, soulwinner, through and through Christian then this article simply does not apply them.
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
Perry Noble is known for strange attention-grabbing antics. He uses some rough language, and he tries to appear all "tough-guy" but doesn't quite pull it off. He once opened up the Easter service with "Highway to Hell", then lied about why he did it. His methods appear to be questionable.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
But none of that is relevant here, because none of that has to do with this specific article. Furthermore, give me the name of a pastor who you DO approve of, and I guarantee you I could find all sorts of stuff on the internet critiquing him for something or other. So the question is, do you have any disagreement with the content of this particular article? If so, then you would be contributing positively to the conversation by sharing it with us. But if not, do you really think it's fair to keep criticizing the author on posts that have nothing to do with your disagreements with him. From our previous exchange, it doesn't seem that you take the Golden Rule very seriously; but ask yourself, how would you like it if it was being done to you?
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
I think it's very relevant. Perry Noble is not an example of a pastor that we ought to lift up as an example of a guy that we want to emulate. He is even wrong about the basic premise of this article --that a small church is doing something wrong to keep it from growing.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
As to your final sentence, which was on topic, I can see where you're coming from. I don't know if the author's premise really is that a small church is doing something wrong to keep it from going, but it does give off that vibe to me from a cursory reading. Although to be fair to him, after more careful reading, I noticed he never specifically talks about "small" churches. And I have known large churches that also do not grow. It seems that his emphasis is not really on "small church" vs. "large church," but rather growth vs. non growth, whatever the size of the church. And if a church is not growing, sometimes it IS the church's fault. And if it is, one needs to be honest about it. Of course, there will always be some situations, such as the one you've described for yourself, when lack of growth is due to nothing more than the location. In rural areas, there's just not than many people to begin with! It would've been good if the author had mentioned that, and it certainly would've cleared up some misconceptions. But wouldn't it be good to give him the benefit of the doubt, and not to assume that just because he doesn't say something doesn't mean he doesn't believe it. It's obvious that you are biased against the author. And that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion and you have your reasons for it. But isn't it possible that your bias may be causing you to read more into the article's premise than is actually there?
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
As to whether or not Perry Noble is an "example of a pastor that we ought to lift up," let me turn that back on you again. Earlier you cast judgement on an entire congregation, an entire segment of the Body of Christ. That's not a judgement on my part, it's your own words: you're judgement of them was that they were a "bad church." Furthermore, you've thrown out accusations regarding the author without providing any evidence to back them up. (You seem to assume that we should just take your word for it that he's guilty of what you accuse him, or that your accusations of him are self-evident. We shouldn't, and they're not.) Again, that's not a judgement on my part, it's what you've written (the accusations) and what you haven't written (evidence). Now, even though you never replied to my question concerning whether you would like it if you would like such things done to you and to your church, the fact that you have continued to deflect strongly suggests that you wouldn't like it. Therefore, you have treated the author in a way that you wouldn't want to be treated yourself. This is a clear violation of the Golden Rule. So, given your own violation of one of our Lord's clearest and simplest commands, do you really think you are an example of a guy who should comment on these articles?
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
I don't want to lose you again, so let me approach this from a different angle. Could you please answer this question: What were you trying to accomplish by calling NewSpring Church a bad church because of Perry Noble? What was the purpose of those statements?
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
I guess I'd be curious to see who we do church for, Bill? Do we do church for the believers? Or for the unbelievers?
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
We don't "do" church at all. We ARE the church. That's an important distinction. And we ARE the church for God, not for anyone else. The debate on whether the church is for believers or for unbelievers is, I believe, a false dichotomy. Now, I have answered your question, I hope you will answer mine: What were you trying to accomplish by calling NewSpring Church a bad church because of Perry Noble? What was the purpose of those statements?
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
My point is that I've seen what Perry writes, heard what he teaches...and seen some of the infantile antics that he's done. He is not a sound teacher, and by extension his church is a bad church. I would not recommend anyone attend his church. His church is a classic example of the church that is big, but not necessarily better. His church is not a church that God wants to get bigger--because he does not accurately teach God's word.
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
As for the question about "who we do church for"....my point was that Perry's philosophy is that they conduct the church service in order to attract unbelievers. If the church is small, it's because they haven't attracted people. The Biblical view of the church, though, is that it is a body of believers. If the church is small, it's because there aren't that many believers there. It isn't necessarily within my power to convert people. I can preach the Gospel, but God does the converting.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
I answered your question as you asked it, I would appreciate it if you could answer my question as I asked it. I know what your "point" is, I understand you don't like him, but that's not my question. As a PRACTICAL MATTER, what were you trying to accomplish by calling NewSpring Church a bad church because of Perry Noble? What was the purpose of those statements?
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
I fear I may have lost you again, so let me try this from yet another different angle. You asked me a simple question (Is church for believers or for unbelievers?) and I answered your question directly, as you asked it, and without any long elaborations. I ask only that you grant me the same respect: Which of the following do you believe to be the mark of a true follower of Christ: right theology, or Christlike love?
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
Bill...you asked me what my point is, and what I hope might be accomplished? I would hope to expose Perry Noble for the charlatan that he is. I would hope that maybe he'd read this and repent of his antics, or that others would avoid his teachings--or that SermonCentral would stop printing his articles. Now...about your next question: You asked what is a mark of a true Christian, theology or behavior? Correct theology is required, as many mormons are wonderfully nice people...yet they worship a god that came from a planet near the star named Kolob. Yes--we should be Christlike--but that's only the outward result of an inward faith.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
Thank you for responding. Now we're getting somewhere! Let's start with your first response...You stated several purpose for your initial remarks: a) to expose Perry Noble, b) to influence Perry Noble to "repent of his antics," c) to influence other readers to avoid his teachings, and d) to influence SermonCentral.com to stop publishing his articles. Is this correct. If so, my first thoughts are that this is quite an ambitious agenda that you attempted to achieve through a couple of (what are quite honestly) snarky comments. But let me ask you, then, this follow-up question: Examine your initial statements against, specifically those calling NewSpring church a bad church, and citing Perry Noble as evidence. Honestly, how effectively do you feel those comments accomplished, or at least made progress on, any of your stated purposes? And a second follow-up question, is it possible that a more respectful, more Christlike, more substantive response would have been more effective in accomplishing your purposes. In other words, could you have accomplished your purposes without being snarky?
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
Honestly, Bill...I don't care to continue it any further. If you want to take up for Perry Noble, knock yourself out. I've stated my opinion regarding him and his bad teaching.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
I'm not taking up for Perry. This has nothing to do with him. I don't have the slightest clue about anything concerning Perry other than the articles that are published here by him every now and then. This is about you. If you don't want to continue this conversation, that's your right. But just know that anytime you post a snarky comment here complaining that Perry or anyone else is not "not an example that we ought to lift up" because of his teachings, I will respond likewise by saying that neither are you an example of someone we should take seriously because your outward lack of Christian love and character reveals a clear deficiency of inward faith. I'm sure you won't mind that, since all I'm doing is treating you as you have treated Perry.
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
Bill...the problem is that you don't have the slightest clue about Perry, or his antics--and you don't seem to care to. Instead of stopping to look a the facts, the first thing you do is assume the guy that is speaking is a jerk and needs to be shouted down. This type of attitude is one of the major problems with the church today--we are afraid to call out a false teacher and instead shoot the guy that dares to suggest someone is doing something wrong.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
It is precisely because I don't have the slightest clue about Perry that I don't care about him. Do you know how many "false teachers" there are out there? I couldn't possibly be informed about every single one of them. And neither can you. Why do you not trust God enough to let him deal with Perry? Why not rather spend energy on things where you have more direct influence? That's what I'm doing in this conversation. Nothing I write here is ever going to make a difference to Perry, and the same goes for you. It's foolish to believe otherwise. BUT, maybe I CAN get through to you. See, unlike with Perry, you and I have somewhat more of a relationship. Maybe I can make a difference here. But where did you get the idea that I'm assuming you're a jerk? Give me the quote where I wrote that. What I said is that I don't believe you have treated Perry as you yourself would like to be treated, and that that is a clear violation of the Golden Rule. I quoted directly you're own words, asking you only to exchange your name for Perry's and your church's name for NewSpring. And I asked you simply, Would you like it if those words were said to you? You didn't answer. You still haven't answered. You know, this conversation would've been over long ago, if you had only said, "Yes, in a comparable situation, I would like my words said about me." That would've ended the discussion, and as a side benefit I would've apologized to you for having misjudged you...But you didn't say yes. Because you know it's not true. The words you used against Perry, you wouldn't like to be used against you. And you can't admit that by saying no, either, because then you would be condemning yourself. Not me, not anyone else. You, and you alone, by saying no, would be condemning yourself. That's why you never answered. That's why you've deflected. That's why you've chosen to concentrate on the speck in Perry's eye, so that you wouldn't have to deal with the log in your own. And by the way, that doesn't make you a jerk. It just makes you human. And recognizing your humanity should ideally make you a little more humble, and a little more willing to treat a brother in Christ with love and respect. Even if you disagree with his teachings. ESPECIALLY if you disagree with his teachings. Brother, you may have a legitimate case against Perry's teachings. Then make your case. Don't get sidetracked by makings snarky comments, by being disrespectful, by saying things you know you wouldn't want to be said to you, nor of you. Tell us exactly what your concerns are, and give us evidence for it. You said I haven't been looking at the "facts." What facts? Give me a single accusation you've made against him that you have provided any evidence in support--a link, a website, anything. You haven't. However "lofty" your purposes may have been for your snide remarks, the only thing you accomplished is making yourself feel morally superior to Perry. That's it. And feeling morally superior was a key characteristic of the Pharisees, who received our Lord's harshest rebukes. I appeal to you as a brother in Christ: you are on very dangerous ground. Read what I wrote above. "The greatest of these is love." Right theology is vitally important, but it is meaningless without love. You have a burden to call out false teachers? Fine, I have no problem with that. But do it with LOVE. That's all I'm saying. That's all this conversation is about, for me. Don't do it in the flesh. The flesh accomplishes nothing, and it stands against the Spirit. My brother, if you really want to call out a man you feel is a false teacher, by all means, do so. But do it in love.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
I agree. No article can be completely comprehensive on its chosen topic. There are many more reasons stated for lack of church growth, so removing these eight will not automatically solve the problem. But these eight reasons that were presented are valid, and though they may not apply for some pastors, it would be foolish at least not to consider whether one or more of these reasons may apply to one's own situation, even if there are other variables at work also.
Bill Williams avatar
Bill Williams
0 days ago
You know, an interesting thought came to mind during my conversation with Keith. I've visited this site off and on for, oh, I don't know, maybe about a year and a half. I have seen many articles and comments being challenged because some felt their content was not correct theologically. There have been long, detailed discussions on issues such as women in ministry, the nature of hell, salvation, etc. Some of these discussions have gone into well over 100 comments...But in all my time here, I don't ever recall anyone ever challenging someone who so clearly disregarded our Lord's instruction to treat others as we ourselves would be treated. Brothers and sisters, I believe that right theology matters. I believe that what we believe about God and about the teachings of Scriptures is of vital importance. But let us not fool ourselves. When Christ gave the key, identifying mark of a true follower of Christ, that mark was NOT right theology. It was LOVE! "By this will the world know that you are my disciples, that you LOVE one another." Christian love and respect towards our brothers and sisters in Christ, treating others the same way we ourselves would want to be treated--these are not just ancillary issues of the Christian faith to which we may merely pay lip service. This is the HEART of the Christian life. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, we can have understanding of all mysteries and all knowledge, and we can have all the right answers and all the right theology--but if we don't have LOVE, we are nothing! Yes, he did write that. Look it up again if you want. He said that without love, we are NOTHING. So, what does it say when, on a site presumably read by Christian pastors and leaders, we will argue theology all day long, but a person who clearly expresses a lack of love in his comments is basically given a free pass? When the only one who challenges such a person is not even a pastor? Isn't it possible that we are majoring on the minors? Shame on us!! What if Keith had come on here and singled out your spouse by name and called them bad? Would you not have been offended? And yet, he has done so much worse than that. He has disparaged a part of the Bride of Christ, precious souls for whom he shed his blood on the cross. And NO ONE other than me seemed to have a problem with this? Unbelievable!! Brothers and sisters, Christ takes personally any mistreatment towards his Bride. This is a much bigger deal than I think most of us understand. Maybe we should start acting like it is a big deal. It's certainly a bigger deal than how long the fires of hell will last.
Keith  B avatar
Keith B
0 days ago
You guys want to know why I have such a problem with Perry Noble? It's stuff like this: http://www.pajamapages.com/perry-noble-says-planned-parenthood-is-more-christian-than-you/ -- Yes--that's right...Perry Noble actually said that Planned Parenthood is "More Christian" than many Christians. The guy has made a habit of making stupid comments and doing stupid things in an effort to be edgy and controversial. He seems to think that if a church isn't growing, it's the pastor's fault. The problem is, the pastor is not called to grow the church -- he's called to shepherd the flock.

So, what did you think?


Thank you.